ANAD Marvel already done in?

[doctormo]

I'm more curious if Champions #1 will come out with that title or if they will have to rename it like they did with The Order. I thought Marvel lost the trademark for Champions ages ago back when the role playing game came out or when comics based on the role playing game came out.

John, I vaguely remember when Marvel lost the Champions trademark; I was not following comics journalism that closely. I definitely remember that whole debacle with The Order. According to an IGN interview, Marvel has secured the name - http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/09/06/ ... ions-comic. This question was also brought up during a Marvel Press Conference shared by Word Balloon - http://wordballoon.blogspot.com/2016/09 ... -waid.html. Marvel seems to be celebrating that fact with numerous variant covers - http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/09/09/ ... ampions-1/.

[JohnMayo]

From that article:

Brevoort also said that he has a list of several dozen "bad names" for the series that would have been considered if Marvel hadn't been able to sort out their trademark dispute with RPG publisher Heroic Publishing.

I find this interesting since Heroic Publishing was the comic book publisher, not the RPG publisher (which is Hero Games). Marvel may not have sorted out the trademark with the actual owner of the Champions intellectual property.

[Alec Burkhardt]

I'm more curious if Champions #1 will come out with that title or if they will have to rename it like they did with The Order. I thought Marvel lost the trademark for Champions ages ago back when the role playing game came out or when comics based on the role playing game came out.

They've apparently reacquired the trademark. (http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/3528 ... iel-part-3) Most likely they either paid to get it back, or perhaps it has been long enough since Heroic has actually published a comic with the title. That's how Marvel lost the title in the first place.

[JohnMayo]

I'm more curious if Champions #1 will come out with that title or if they will have to rename it like they did with The Order. I thought Marvel lost the trademark for Champions ages ago back when the role playing game came out or when comics based on the role playing game came out.

They've apparently reacquired the trademark. (http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/3528 ... iel-part-3) Most likely they either paid to get it back, or perhaps it has been long enough since Heroic has actually published a comic with the title. That's how Marvel lost the title in the first place.

Heroic Publishing is still publishing a Champions title.

Clearly I'm a little confused about the ownership of the Champions property. There is a comic book title from Heroic Publishing, a role playing game from Hero Games and an online multiplayer computer game from Cryptic Studios. Presumably whoever Marvel negotiated with actually had the comic book rights to the trademark.

[doctormo]

I looked around on the Heroic Publishing's website and could not tell how much of their content was new material, or just older material being repackaged. I remember buying some issues of FemForce back in the 90s.

[JohnMayo]

I looked around on the Heroic Publishing's website and could not tell how much of their content was new material, or just older material being repackaged. I remember buying some issues of FemForce back in the 90s.

I thought FemForce was from AC or AmeriComics, not Heroic Publishing.

I have no idea how much, if any, of the Heroic Publishing material is new versus reprint.

Odds are Heroic Publishing is operating under the radar of most comic book readers.

[Alec Burkhardt]

Heroic Publishing is still publishing a Champions title.

Clearly I'm a little confused about the ownership of the Champions property. There is a comic book title from Heroic Publishing, a role playing game from Hero Games and an online multiplayer computer game from Cryptic Studios. Presumably whoever Marvel negotiated with actually had the comic book rights to the trademark.

Unfortunately from the article it didn't sound like the details were likely to be forthcoming from anyone. But this is really an issue just of trademarks, not the Champions property more broadly. If no one else was publishing a comic/magazine with the title Champions the fact that Hero Games or Cryptic Studios have desktop or computer games with the same name would be largely irrelevant. Unless someone was trying to publish a comic based on the content of those games, but in that circumstance copyright would be the stronger case than any trademark concern. Their trademarks are limited to their industries.

Since Marvel is clearly not planning on publishing a Champions comic book based on either of the games, it'd be hard to see either gaming company being able to stop the use of the word Champions for the name of a comic/magazine. Just like neither they or Marvel could stop someone from publishing a series of novels about Roman gladiators with the name/title Champions. The exact same term(s) can be used in many different industries as trademarks; heck even within the same industry if we are talking about local-sized companies in different states since they technically aren't in the same marketplaces. I'm sure there are hundreds of Champion(s) trademarks registered at the USPTO. The only one which would be relevant here would be the one related to comic book publishing. (Perhaps expanded to magazines/periodicals more broadly, but I'm betting you could publishing a sports magazine called Champions and likely not run into a trademark problem.)

Like you, I assume Heroic still has the legal trademark, as they were the ones who were able to show that Marvel had abandoned it back in the 80s. Certainly Marvel knows who holds/held the trademark, as that is the party which forced them to use The Order as a title the last time they wanted to use Champions. Most likely Marvel negotiated something with them so that Marvel could use the title again. Technically a title doesn't have to be considered a trademark at all - it just typically is something that is done to prevent others from using your title, or a similar one, and creating confusion in the marketplace. And there is no neutral third party enforcers/protectors of trademarks - a trademark holder has to do the work themselves to protect their trademark. You can lose a trademark by not preventing others from using it, but if Heroic has a deal in place with Marvel, they can still show that they have defended their trademark by requiring Marvel to make that deal. That makes it difficult for anyone else attempting to publish a third comic titled Champions and say that it can't be protected by trademarked since there are two of them on the stands. And if there is an agreement between Heroic and Marvel, it could also include other stipulations intended to limit the likelihood of confusion in marketplace. (Or perhaps Heroic is fine with some confusion, hoping someone picks up their Champions book thinking it is a variant cover. Confusion in the favor of the legal trademark holder often isn't considered a problem by said trademark holder.)

But that is just one possible explanation; perhaps the simplest but not necessarily the true one. For all we know, someone at Marvel/Disney could have said that the title/trademark Champions is worth millions to them and to go ahead regardless, planning to bury Heroic in litigation over whether or not Heroic has a valid trademark if necessary. I find that highly unlikely, since if someone thought that it'd probably be cheaper to just buy the trademark at the outset, but unless someone with the internal knowledge says what actually happened, it isn't something likely to be able to determine from the outside.

[JohnMayo]

If no one else was publishing a comic/magazine with the title Champions the fact that Hero Games or Cryptic Studios have desktop or computer games with the same name would be largely irrelevant.

But Heroic Publishing is publishing a Champions comic. I guess the question is if the Champions comic book (and narrative universe) is a different IP from the RPG and computer game. If they are different things then I can understand how Heroic Publishing might have cut a deal with Marvel. If they are the same thing, then it seems like if Marvel cut a deal with Heroic Publishing that Heroic Publishing was giving away something they might have been licensing from the IP holder which they might not have the right to do.

As you said, the details of all of this will probably never be made public.

[Alec Burkhardt]

We aren't talking broad spectrum IP here though, just the matter of trademarks. That is the only part of Intellectual Property which prevented Marvel from publishing a comic book with the title Champions when they put out The Order. If they'd wanted to at the time, they even could have still called the group within the pages The Champions (and maybe they did, as I've not read it to know), as there clearly isn't a copyright issue between Marvel's Champions and the RPG Champions and/or the comic book universe which spun out of it. Just like DC can have a Captain Marvel (Billy Batson/Shazam) character, but can't publish a book with the title Captain Marvel without making some type of deal with Marvel, who holds that trademark now.

Who actually owns what parts of the Champions/Hero Universe IP which stems from the creation of the RPG is a different question, and may not even impact who holds the trademark for a comic book/magazine title. I'd bet that whatever transpired, Marvel/Disney did work with whomever holds the trademark rights. From the legal dispute in the 80s, it was Heroic Publishing (formerly Hero Comics, then Hero Graphics) who was involved in the issue of the Champions trademark and Marvel's abandonment of it. Which is why I assume they are the holders of the trademark. They might not be though, as you say. And Marvel really isn't going to care about that broader IP - they only care about the issue of being able to use the word "Champions" as a title, which only involves the trademark holder.

In the end, Heroic Publishing could hold the trademark even if they are licensing the background/characters/setting/etc. from Hero Games (currently legally owned by DOJ Inc. - Hero Games has passed through a number of hands over the Years). Hero Games (or Iron Crown Enterprises - it's a little unclear if Hero Games was still independent or owned by ICE around the time of initial comics) may not have cared much about the trademark/title of the comic book, figuring that the real value was in the content, and allowed Hero Comics/Heroic Publishing to work out trademark issues. In that case, Heroic Publishing could still continue to publish a comic with that title even if the agreement ended. They'd just need to come up with entirely new characters and concepts so that they wouldn't be violating any copyrights.

[JohnMayo]

I just wonder if Heroic Publishing had the rights to continue doing a Champions comic book but perhaps not the right to let someone else use the trademark. It is also possible that some of the deals which allow some of the many companies involve to do what they do predate some of the later changes in ownership. Like you said, Champions (the RPG) has changed hands a few times.

[MisterFerro]

Bleedingcool wrote that

Marvel recently entered a joint agreement with Heroic Publications over the publishing of a new Marvel comic series Champions comic, while still allowing Heroic who own the trademark to publish its own line of Champions-related titles.

Marvel Registers Trademark For ‘League Of Champions’ Just To Be On The Safe Side

[Alec Burkhardt]

I just wonder if Heroic Publishing had the rights to continue doing a Champions comic book but perhaps not the right to let someone else use the trademark. It is also possible that some of the deals which allow some of the many companies involve to do what they do predate some of the later changes in ownership. Like you said, Champions (the RPG) has changed hands a few times.

You seem to be making an assumption that someone else would have a legal right over the Champions trademark in comic books besides Heroic Publishing, based on this other party having a copyright interest in what is inside the pages of the comic book. The fact that the copyright IP inside the comic book likely (again, the various ownership issues of both Hero Games, for the RPG, and for Heroic Publishing, for the comic - although that appears to mostly be name change, make who actually owns the copyright IP of the comic books not completely clear to an outside viewer) involves other parties really isn't relevant to the ownership of the trademark. While that copyright IP certainly inspired the title for the comic book, and then the trademarking of said title, that doesn't actually give the copyright holder any rights over the trademark.

[Alec Burkhardt]

Bleedingcool wrote that

Marvel recently entered a joint agreement with Heroic Publications over the publishing of a new Marvel comic series Champions comic, while still allowing Heroic who own the trademark to publish its own line of Champions-related titles.

Marvel Registers Trademark For ‘League Of Champions’ Just To Be On The Safe Side

It will be interesting to see if the USPTO will grant Marvel such a trademark.

In the first place, it seems like it may not be distinct enough from 'Champions' for it to be considered for trademark status. For example, DC likely can't trademark' American Avengers' or even 'Justice League Avengers' without Marvel claiming trademark infringement.

And then there is the fact that Heroic Publishing already is using pretty much that exact title, both for a print and web comic. Perhaps Heroic hasn't officially registered a trademark, but the fact that they are already in the marketplace with the title pretty much means they can end Marvel's attempt to register the mark if they want.

[JohnMayo]

You seem to be making an assumption that someone else would have a legal right over the Champions trademark in comic books besides Heroic Publishing, based on this other party having a copyright interest in what is inside the pages of the comic book.

Yes, I was unclear who actually owned the trademark for Champions for use with comic books. Both the comic book IP and the role playing game IP have changed hands over the years and I wasn't sure who owned what. The MMO added another layer of confusion, particularly given the overlap of properties in general between the computer gaming space and the comic book space.

i had thought, apparently incorrectly so that the owners of the Champions RPG licensed out the usage of the name for the comic book when it appears the Heroic Publishing seems to flat out own the Champions trademark for comic books.

While that copyright IP certainly inspired the title for the comic book, and then the trademarking of said title, that doesn't actually give the copyright holder any rights over the trademark.

Agreed. Copyright issues and trademark issues are distinct but both can be very confusing.