www.ComicBookPage.com

BobBretall wrote:It combined 2 of my least favorite things in comics:
1 - Introduce a brand new villain/organization and act like it's something that's been around for years
2 - Introduce a new villain/minion we are meant to believe is a heretofore unknown relative of the comic's main character

I get where you are coming from on this, particularly since the second one has been used in multiple stories/titles during the Night of Owls storylines. But both of these seem like they are fairly restrictive.

The first means that all villains/organizations introduces have to be new and can't have been operating in secret for any length of time. Isn't the problem really that the Court of Owls has been active in a fairly known but still "secretive" manner for over a century stretching the credibility that Batman didn't ready know about them.

The second implies that either all of the relatives of the major characters are either introduced up front or can't be villains in any manner. Again, this is one that was recently done for multiple characters which is what makes is so hard to accept. Having the Batman, Nightwing and Batgirl titles all recently telling stories involving a relative that is a major threat to the title character is the problem. The writing device isn't great but there are times when it can be used well. Part of the key is to use it occasionally, not in multiple titles at once.

Again, I can see how and why these aspects of the Batman titles aren't working for you right now but I do think there are ways for writers to break both of your points and still tell great stories. It just wasn't done in this case.

JohnMayo wrote: Isn't the problem really that the Court of Owls has been active in a fairly known but still "secretive" manner for over a century stretching the credibility that Batman didn't ready know about them.

Bingo. This is exactly it.

If they'd been around for a few years, that's OK.

If they have been around since the 1800's and are in Nursery rhymes, why has nobody done anything about them in the 5 years super-heroes have been active in the New52?

BobBretall wrote:

JohnMayo wrote: Isn't the problem really that the Court of Owls has been active in a fairly known but still "secretive" manner for over a century stretching the credibility that Batman didn't ready know about them.

Bingo. This is exactly it.

If they'd been around for a few years, that's OK.

If they have been around since the 1800's and are in Nursery rhymes, why has nobody done anything about them in the 5 years super-heroes have been active in the New52?

I don't care if the group has been around for centuries if the have stayed under the radar. Presumably the Court of Owls was known as one point and went underground for long enough to be forgotten about by all but the remaining members of the group. Of course, at that point, rebuilding to a critical mass to become a threat again seems like a bit of a problem.

JohnMayo wrote: I don't care if the group has been around for centuries if the have stayed under the radar. Presumably the Court of Owls was known as one point and went underground for long enough to be forgotten about by all but the remaining members of the group. Of course, at that point, rebuilding to a critical mass to become a threat again seems like a bit of a problem.

And there's the problem. Should Batman be oblivious to a legendary criminal organization re-building to critical mass under his nose?

BobBretall wrote:And there's the problem. Should Batman be oblivious to a legendary criminal organization re-building to critical mass under his nose?

Well, at one point he was oblivious to a guy rigging all of Gotham City with cameras so he could spy on the entire city (during the Batman Family miniseries a while back.) So, yeah, I can see it happening, particularly if they are trying to stay under the radar of both Batman and Bruce Wayne.

JohnMayo wrote:

BobBretall wrote:And there's the problem. Should Batman be oblivious to a legendary criminal organization re-building to critical mass under his nose?

Well, at one point he was oblivious to a guy rigging all of Gotham City with cameras so he could spy on the entire city (during the Batman Family miniseries a while back.) So, yeah, I can see it happening, particularly if they are trying to stay under the radar of both Batman and Bruce Wayne.

Mixing our Batmen (pre-new52 & new52) aside, there's the problem with telling a zillion Batman stories a year....inconsistency in how awesomely meticulous & on top of everything Batman is.

Oh well, does not really matter.

Bottom line is I didn't enjoy Court of Owls for various reasons & other people did. End of story.

BobBretall wrote:Mixing our Batmen (pre-new52 & new52) aside...

As far as I know, there is no reason to think the events in that miniseries didn't happen. That is the problem with DC claiming many prior events still happened without specifying exactly which did and didn't happen. I'm going by the rule of thumb that anything that could have still happened could have still happened.It isn't like I mixed the Batman in Batman and Detective Comics with the new one in Batman: Earth One.

Regardless, if you didn't enjoy it, you didn't enjoy it. And, frankly, I can understand why.

JohnMayo wrote: As far as I know, there is no reason to think the events in that miniseries didn't happen. That is the problem with DC claiming many prior events still happened without specifying exactly which did and didn't happen.

I look at New52 as a clean slate.

This may not be precise canon since DC itself is really vague on the point, but I assume if it's not something I've seen specifically (in action/flashback/reference) since the new #1s, then it didn't happen.

It helps me retain my sanity.

BobBretall wrote:

JohnMayo wrote: As far as I know, there is no reason to think the events in that miniseries didn't happen. That is the problem with DC claiming many prior events still happened without specifying exactly which did and didn't happen.

I look at New52 as a clean slate.

This may not be precise canon since DC itself is really vague on the point, but I assume if it's not something I've seen specifically (in action/flashback/reference) since the new #1s, then it didn't happen.

It helps me retain my sanity.

The confusing comes in from things like knowing that Superman died and came back but that neither Supergirl nor Superboy were around at the time since she just got to Earth and he was only born recently. It makes the backstory all the more confusing.

There has been some talk about how many crossovers DC has had in the New 52 titles. Obviously there was "Night of the Owls," "The Culling" and "RotWorld." What other cases have there been of DC "forcing" readers from one title to another?

I've been working on a diagram of the New 52 titles with those sorts of crossovers included in red.

Here is a link to the 571 by 5629 pixel image:
http://www.comicbookpage.com/ForumImage ... 120822.png

Please let me know about any crossovers that aren't in the diagram.

JohnMayo wrote:There has been some talk about how many crossovers DC has had in the New 52 titles. Obviously there was "Night of the Owls," "The Culling" and "RotWorld." What other cases have there been of DC "forcing" readers from one title to another?

I've been working on a diagram of the New 52 titles with those sorts of crossovers included in red.

Here is a link to the 571 by 5629 pixel image:
http://www.comicbookpage.com/ForumImage ... 120822.png

Please let me know about any crossovers that aren't in the diagram.

Didn't O.M.A.C. and Frankenstein cross over for one issue around #5 ?

JohnMayo wrote:There has been some talk about how many crossovers DC has had in the New 52 titles. Obviously there was "Night of the Owls," "The Culling" and "RotWorld." What other cases have there been of DC "forcing" readers from one title to another?

I've been working on a diagram of the New 52 titles with those sorts of crossovers included in red.

Here is a link to the 571 by 5629 pixel image:
http://www.comicbookpage.com/ForumImage ... 120822.png

Please let me know about any crossovers that aren't in the diagram.

I think you are missing the Justice League Dark and I, Vampire crossover.

HassanT wrote:I think you are missing the Justice League Dark and I, Vampire crossover.

I believe you are correct. What order were the issues in for that crossover and did it have a name?

Rise of the Vampires occurred in issues 7 and 8 of both books.

The ending of issue 6 of both books lead into the crossover, but I don't think you should consider them part of the crossover.

BTW, I forgot to mention that the chart you created is really cool.