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JLAFan wrote: I believe that you could have pretty much any artist drawing Secret Invasion and it would be selling gang-busters.

I pretty much agree with that due to the event nature of it and because of Bendis writing it. But, I'm not as certain that it would be selling as well as it had without Yu. Unfortunately there really isn't any empirical way of testing this.

JLAFan wrote: I do think there is a valid argument, though, that if you put him on one of Marvel's low-selling titles if it would have ANY effect at all (positive, negative, or neutral).....

I would expect that if he were places on a random low selling Marvel title that we might see a bump on the first issue, probably not a major one but a noticeable one, and then see the title trend back down to where it was.

While Yu may be a popular artist, there is little evidence that most readers follow most creators from title to title. If they did then Potter's Field would have sold better as would Powers and a number of other lower selling titles down but creators that have had higher selling titles.

If, however, Yu was placed on a new title with a character that recently had a lower selling title that it would probably launch reasonably well and then drift down. Part of this would depend on the writer of the series and the character.

Based on the sales of the past titles Yu has been on, it is reasonable to think that he could be a sales draw to some degree. If nothing else, when retailers place their orders they will be basing their decisions on how much to get at least partially on how things by those creators have sold in the past. With Yu, the is more of a benefit than a hinderance.

johnmayo wrote:

JLAFan wrote: I believe that you could have pretty much any artist drawing Secret Invasion and it would be selling gang-busters.

I pretty much agree with that due to the event nature of it and because of Bendis writing it. But, I'm not as certain that it would be selling as well as it had without Yu. Unfortunately there really isn't any empirical way of testing this.

I agree that there is no empirical way of testing it, but I'd like to zero in on the statement:

But, I'm not as certain that it would be selling as well as it had without Yu.

This is possibly true if they had pulled out some no-name artist nobody has ever heard of before, but think it would be selling just as well (if not better) with any of the following artists who do work for Marvel:

* Stuart Immonen
* Barry Kitson
* Bryan Hitch
* Olivier Coipel
* Simone Bianchi
* Ariel Olivetti
* Clayton Crain
* John Romita Jr.
* I'm sure there are others I'm missing.....

JLAFan wrote:

johnmayo wrote:

JLAFan wrote: I believe that you could have pretty much any artist drawing Secret Invasion and it would be selling gang-busters.

I pretty much agree with that due to the event nature of it and because of Bendis writing it. But, I'm not as certain that it would be selling as well as it had without Yu. Unfortunately there really isn't any empirical way of testing this.

I agree that there is no empirical way of testing it, but I'd like to zero in on the statement:

But, I'm not as certain that it would be selling as well as it had without Yu.

This is possibly true if they had pulled out some no-name artist nobody has ever heard of before, but think it would be selling just as well (if not better) with any of the following artists who do work for Marvel:

* Stuart Immonen
* Barry Kitson
* Bryan Hitch
* Olivier Coipel
* Simone Bianchi
* Ariel Olivetti
* Clayton Crain
* John Romita Jr.
* I'm sure there are others I'm missing.....

Maybe. But Yu has the advantage of being the New Avengers artist and Secret Invasion at the core is an Avengers story which I think gives him a bit of an edge over the others. Also, New Avengers is usually a top selling title for Marvel giving Yu the advantage of familiarity for most readers.

None of the choice you mentioned would have been bad ones and a few might have sold as well as Yu (JR jr for one) but part of what sold Secret Invasion was the creative team and Bendis/Yu is a team with a solid track record for selling titles. That is part of why I think that for this particular project, Yu was a logical and good choice and that many of the other artists probably would not have resulted in better sales for this title.

That having been said, I'm more than willing to concede that it is possible that the series could have done even better than it is with a different artist on it. I certainly don't think that Secret Invasion hit the peak of possible sales either in general or for it specifically.

johnmayo wrote:

Flash77 wrote:John -

You are taking my comments out of context.

John -

My apologies for misrepresenting your points - no disrespect intended. I chalk this up to trying to recall what I heard while listening to the podcast when driving to work 8 hours ago.

Thanks for correcting.

Flash77 wrote:

johnmayo wrote:
You are taking my comments out of context.

John -

My apologies for misrepresenting your points - no disrespect intended. I chalk this up to trying to recall what I heard while listening to the podcast when driving to work 8 hours ago.

Thanks for correcting.

In fairness, I did pull up the episode and double check what I said before replying. It is easy to misremember exactly what was said sometimes. No harm, no foul. I just wanted to clarify what I said and why.

JLAFan wrote:

johnmayo wrote:

JLAFan wrote: I believe that you could have pretty much any artist drawing Secret Invasion and it would be selling gang-busters.

I pretty much agree with that due to the event nature of it and because of Bendis writing it. But, I'm not as certain that it would be selling as well as it had without Yu. Unfortunately there really isn't any empirical way of testing this.

I agree that there is no empirical way of testing it, but I'd like to zero in on the statement:

But, I'm not as certain that it would be selling as well as it had without Yu.

This is possibly true if they had pulled out some no-name artist nobody has ever heard of before, but think it would be selling just as well (if not better) with any of the following artists who do work for Marvel:

* Stuart Immonen
* Barry Kitson
* Bryan Hitch
* Olivier Coipel
* Simone Bianchi
* Ariel Olivetti
* Clayton Crain
* John Romita Jr.
* I'm sure there are others I'm missing.....

Bryan Hitch? Do you really want to see an issue every other month

Seriously, I agree with you that SI would have sold well regardless of the artist. But having a good or great artist will probably help the long-run sales on the trade. I also think they pick Yu, because he is relatively quick, compared to most artists today. That helps get the Event book out on time. That is what DC should have done with Final Crisis.

But, to go back to the link of Yu and high sales, I think the same thing with the new regular artists on New Avengers and Mighty Avengers (Tan and Pham). They are good artists, but they won't make me buy the book. The book sells because of the writing and not the art. I think the same applies to SI.

johnmayo wrote: That having been said, I'm more than willing to concede that it is possible that the series could have done even better than it is with a different artist on it. I certainly don't think that Secret Invasion hit the peak of possible sales either in general or for it specifically.

I'm not alleging that it would have sold better with another artist, just that it would have sold about the same with any number of other credible artists.

My main point was disputing that Yu INCREASED sales. Just my anti-Yu bias creeping in, I'm afraid.

JLAFan wrote:

johnmayo wrote: That having been said, I'm more than willing to concede that it is possible that the series could have done even better than it is with a different artist on it. I certainly don't think that Secret Invasion hit the peak of possible sales either in general or for it specifically.

I'm not alleging that it would have sold better with another artist, just that it would have sold about the same with any number of other credible artists.

My main point was disputing that Yu INCREASED sales. Just my anti-Yu bias creeping in, I'm afraid.

Technically, Yu didn't increase sales on Secret Invasion as there was no benchmark to measure against before it started. So, in that respect you are correct.

I have to think that Yu being the artist on the series was a factor in would it did. And given the sales of the series and the minimal drop off between issues, Yu was at least a neutral sales factor is not a positive one.

Personally, I'm not wild about his art either. But he does have a following so clearly some people are wild art it.

I think it's largely a fool's errand to bring sales on a crossover book into the equation when evaluating whether an artist's work is liked by a majority of comics fans.

Empirically [impossible to prove], I don't see many artists who actually increase or decrease sales noticeably. You could probably count on your fingers those who tangibly and SUSTAINABLY would alter sales trends.

Wood wrote:I think it's largely a fool's errand to bring sales on a crossover book into the equation when evaluating whether an artist's work is liked by a majority of comics fans.

Empirically [impossible to prove], I don't see many artists who actually increase or decrease sales noticeably. You could probably count on your fingers those who tangibly and SUSTAINABLY would alter sales trends.

I do think that if you put an artist on popular and/or event books that you can build a following for him. In other words, I think that Yu is more popular for having worked on the New Avengers and Secret Invasion than if he has worked on low selling titles. Much of that would be due to fewer people having seen his work on those lower selling titles. In that respect, I think it is important to consider the impact that being on a high profile book has on whether an artist's work is liked by a majority of comics fans. I agree that the success of the high profile titles does not directly equate to the artist being popular or "good" (whatever that means).

Your point that few creators (both artists and writers) seem to move the needle at all on sales, much less to a substantial degree, is very valid.

I do think that it is also foolish to discount the impact an artist has on sales.

While we'll never know how much of the sales on Secret Invasion or New Avengers was due to Yu or despite Yu, there is no denying that his art played some role in how those items sold.

johnmayo wrote:

Wood wrote:I think it's largely a fool's errand to bring sales on a crossover book into the equation when evaluating whether an artist's work is liked by a majority of comics fans.

Empirically [impossible to prove], I don't see many artists who actually increase or decrease sales noticeably. You could probably count on your fingers those who tangibly and SUSTAINABLY would alter sales trends.

I do think that if you put an artist on popular and/or event books that you can build a following for him. In other words, I think that Yu is more popular for having worked on the New Avengers and Secret Invasion than if he has worked on low selling titles. Much of that would be due to fewer people having seen his work on those lower selling titles. In that respect, I think it is important to consider the impact that being on a high profile book has on whether an artist's work is liked by a majority of comics fans. I agree that the success of the high profile titles does not directly equate to the artist being popular or "good" (whatever that means).

Your point that few creators (both artists and writers) seem to move the needle at all on sales, much less to a substantial degree, is very valid.

I do think that it is also foolish to discount the impact an artist has on sales.

While we'll never know how much of the sales on Secret Invasion or New Avengers was due to Yu or despite Yu, there is no denying that his art played some role in how those items sold.

I would like to think that's true, since this is after all a visual medium. But I'm not sure I believe it. Would 52 have sold differently if they had a different group of workmanlike artists on it? Would Secret Invasion really have sold differently?

Sure, if someone really stylized like Ben Templesmith or Mike Ploog or Mike Allred was given an event book, it might turn a lot of folks off. But isn't it really about the event?

I see both sides of this one. I think it SHOULD matter. I'm just not sure in my mind I think it genuinely does.

Wood wrote:

johnmayo wrote:

Wood wrote:I think it's largely a fool's errand to bring sales on a crossover book into the equation when evaluating whether an artist's work is liked by a majority of comics fans.

Empirically [impossible to prove], I don't see many artists who actually increase or decrease sales noticeably. You could probably count on your fingers those who tangibly and SUSTAINABLY would alter sales trends.

I do think that if you put an artist on popular and/or event books that you can build a following for him. In other words, I think that Yu is more popular for having worked on the New Avengers and Secret Invasion than if he has worked on low selling titles. Much of that would be due to fewer people having seen his work on those lower selling titles. In that respect, I think it is important to consider the impact that being on a high profile book has on whether an artist's work is liked by a majority of comics fans. I agree that the success of the high profile titles does not directly equate to the artist being popular or "good" (whatever that means).

Your point that few creators (both artists and writers) seem to move the needle at all on sales, much less to a substantial degree, is very valid.

I do think that it is also foolish to discount the impact an artist has on sales.

While we'll never know how much of the sales on Secret Invasion or New Avengers was due to Yu or despite Yu, there is no denying that his art played some role in how those items sold.

I would like to think that's true, since this is after all a visual medium. But I'm not sure I believe it. Would 52 have sold differently if they had a different group of workmanlike artists on it? Would Secret Invasion really have sold differently?

Sure, if someone really stylized like Ben Templesmith or Mike Ploog or Mike Allred was given an event book, it might turn a lot of folks off. But isn't it really about the event?

I see both sides of this one. I think it SHOULD matter. I'm just not sure in my mind I think it genuinely does.

I also see both side on this and don't think that there is a clear cut answer. While I agree that the choice of artists isn't the deciding factor on the sales, it is a factor and can sway some people to get or not get something.

I don't believe that artists are interchangeable. The choice of artists does impact sales. Although in most cases, I agree that it doesn't make a significant impact on the sales on event titles.

Finally got to Cyblade #1 this weekend and holy cow was this thing awful. I ordered this thinking because it won the pilot season contest that it was be really good. I am glad I decided to stop buying it after issue #2, and I wish I wasn't getting that one.

I felt so lost in trying to read the story and then with the artwork being so so it really was under whelming.

Skyhawke wrote:Finally got to Cyblade #1 this weekend and holy cow was this thing awful. I ordered this thinking because it won the pilot season contest that it was be really good. I am glad I decided to stop buying it after issue #2, and I wish I wasn't getting that one.

I felt so lost in trying to read the story and then with the artwork being so so it really was under whelming.

It does read better if you read the Pilot Season issue right before it. Even then, I cared more for the handler character than the title character of Cyblade and that isn't a good thing.

As a #1 issue, Cyblade was a pretty dismal flop, IMO.

A #1 should have everything you need woven into the issue itself and not be so reliant on a "Pilot" book that came out quite some time ago.