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BobBretall wrote:I didn't feel like we were doing "doom & gloom", but if that's what you heard, that's obviously what came across to you.

Well it wasn't as bad as all that. Just a little hyperbole on my part. It just had a hint of "we are heading for disaster" feel to it for me. Just a tad. Lil bit.

BobBretall wrote:Yes, overall sales are booming (relatively), but that boom is (I believe) based on the success of what I believe to be unsustainable business practices (like re-booting to #1s all the time).

I guess the only question is 'is that unsustainable'? I personally don't feel the industry will collapse or succeed based on titles resetting to issue #1 time and time again. Will there be some buyers that reject that practice and swear off comics that do that? Sure. I have even seen a couple. But I have also seen a lot more buyers scream in anger and swear off titles for resetting, only to either buy the #1 anyway or come back a few issues in.

Most buyers get the comics they do for either the character, the writer, the art or for curiosity about one of those. I fail to see where coming in at issue #468 or the fifth #1 of a series matters in the grand scheme of things.

While the internet screams in disgust about the practice of another #1 (not pointing a finger at any one site, but all of them collectively), It just doesn't seem that important to the actual buyers.

BobBretall wrote: We had a huge crash in the 90s. For people who were around back then, it's hard to not see similar patterns.

Oh for sure there are marketing gimmicks that are coming back around (foil covers!! ), but I can't see the industry falling prey to that 90's horror again. But we, the buyers, have the power to quell the opening of the pathway by just not buying into those patterns.

BobBretall wrote:What we are seeing is a shift to "short-attention-span buying". Titles don't seems to be able to hold on for very long at all unless publishers can continually wow readers with some new "shiny object". Is that sustainable?

Absolutely not. But are we seeing a mass exodus of readers dropping books totally because of that practice or are we seeing a shift of what readers buy because of that practice? That is my point. If overall sales are increasing, month to month and year to year, while the individual titles are losing readership, doesn't that just mean that the buyers are shying away from the said shiny object and putting their money elsewhere into other titles?

WALKING DEAD has gone from 31,500 in sales (Jan 2012) to 70,500 (Jan 2013). I think it is fair to say that the comic industry did not bring in an additional 40,000 new people JUST from the WALKING DEAD in that year. Most chances are that a good portion of those increased buyers were already buying comics. And out of those, how many buyers just added that title to their pull and how many dropped another title just to add it to their pull?

That is another aspect of my point that most comic readers buy either a set dollar amount (needing to drop and add titles as their income allows) or a set title amount (dropping and then adding another title to maintain a self imposed limit) and that amount is on the low end of things. 25 titles a month is still a relatively high dollar amount for the average customer to spend. Spending some of that limited money on LUTHER STRODE instead of Amazing, when you can't or won't buy both, will show a decline in Amazing, but Luther will counter the overall loss.

BobBretall wrote:The observation I made about variant covers is that they appear to be playing out. What was once an assured sales bump is becoming less & less so. The market being pursued now seems to be the high-end "1:50 & 1:100" variants that can go for really large cash to the hard-core collectors who are willing to pay the price.

Yeah, my point about the covers was more about what John said in regards to RED SONJA losing sales due to the multiple covers.

BobBretall wrote:

Perry wrote: Also, the desire of having more than 25 titles over 100K ... isn't that an impossible dream, as most people don't buy like you guys do (I know you are well aware of that )? I would venture a guess that the average comic buyer ... no, the majority of comic buyers, purchase less than 25 titles a month. That alone limits the amount of 100K titles that can be had, as not every buyer will buy the same 25 titles.

John & I aside, I don't think the sales 100k+ or 200k+ or even 500k+ in the past have EVER been contingent on people buying 100+ titles a month. They existed because LOTS & LOTS of people bought a handful of titles every month.

You are right, but at $4 a pop for the average comic, I can almost guarantee that those days of a lot of people buying a lot of comics are gone.

Comic inflation has rising more than wage increase by a huge margin. When people use to buy a hand full of comics and it would equal what they would pay for lunch over a couple of days, now a hand full of comics could equal your lunch expenses for a month

I saw a chart (I can't remember where, but if anyone knows what I am talking about, please post link if you can find it) showing the cost of one comic (by percentage) to minimum wage earned in a week. In other words, if you earned minimum wage and worked for a week, what percentage of that earnings would one comic cost you. During the 70's the average book cost .3% of a weekly minimum wage check. You could buy 3 comics before you even spent 1% of your check. In the 80's it rose to about .42% of a weekly minimum wage check. In 2005 in was almost 1.5% of a weekly minimum wage check to buy one comic. One comic cost you over 1% of your check. 20 comics would have cost you 30% of your check. Again, that is only using the minimum wage scale, but ...

BobBretall wrote:For a resurgence of comics, this is what needs to happen. Many people need to buy comics, and we need to bring MORE people into the comics buying habit. The key thing here is habit. Build up a sustainable habit of people getting stuff each month. Do it by making it good, not by dazzling with vacuous flash.

Can't argue with anything you said here, buddy.

BobBretall wrote:Maybe that is shifting to digital. If so, print will die & digital will boom, but that's a whole different discussion.

I think they can co-exist for awhile. Though yes, printed format is ... well, you're right ... another discussion entirely .

Perry wrote: You are right, but at $4 a pop for the average comic, I can almost guarantee that those days of a lot of people buying a lot of comics are gone.

Now who's "doom & gloom"

Perry wrote: Comic inflation has rising more than wage increase by a huge margin. When people use to buy a hand full of comics and it would equal what they would pay for lunch over a couple of days, now a hand full of comics could equal your lunch expenses for a month

I'm not sure about the "lunch" analogy, but I get your general point. I guess it depends on how big your hand full is & how cheap you can eat lunch. Right now a decent lunch is about $10-12 where I live (not McDonalds, but not high-end, more middle of the road place). That's about 3-4 comics per day.

I like to use the analogy of spending power of an average allowance. I used to be able to scrape together about $3-5 per week when I was a kid washing cars & doing yard work. At 25cents per comic, that meant I could get 12-20 comics per week, or, let's say 10 comics + other stuff like candy & sodas.

Today, to get the same stuff, a kid would need to be getting more like $50/week and most kids (by kid I mean teenagers) are not pulling down $50 per week.

At least for now, this spending problem applies to digital as well as print comics. Even getting $1 off on month old digital comics, I can generally get them cheaper than that in print after they are "old" (e.g. not the current ones). Digital "print comics" are not cheaper so it does not mean just pointing to print will increase circulation or make any difference at all.

I know a lot of kids who read comics digital (my sons friends) and they are either free webcomics or pirated copies of mainstream comics. They are not infusing cash into the world of digital publishing.

BobBretall wrote:

Perry wrote: You are right, but at $4 a pop for the average comic, I can almost guarantee that those days of a lot of people buying a lot of comics are gone.

Now who's "doom & gloom"

right, right.

BobBretall wrote:At least for now, this spending problem applies to digital as well as print comics. Even getting $1 off on month old digital comics, I can generally get them cheaper than that in print after they are "old" (e.g. not the current ones). Digital "print comics" are not cheaper so it does not mean just pointing to print will increase circulation or make any difference at all.

Yeah, digital costs are way too high as of now. When I can get the print copy of a $3.99 book for $2.39 or $2.59, why would I ever pay even $2.99 and not have the book? The need to save space is not to that point yet for me (and it will never be for that price point)

I keep fighting off the urge to buy my Nexus 10 tablet because as much as I want it ... mainly to read comics, I am never going to buy a digital version of a "new" comic at the prices they are currently at, and I don't have a need to buy most of the 99¢ "older" comics because I have a lot of them already in some form or another and hell, I barely have time to keep up with my "new" comics. So as much as I would like to go down those "memory lane" trips, it just isn't worth it for me. Even at the great digital price point of $1 or so.

But again, four or even three bucks for digital ... no way.

Sadly, the more people buy those comics digitally at those prices, the more I see them hanging around at that price. I am hoping the 99¢ sales are so great compared to the others, that companies realize they can sell more with that price or close to it (of course the conundrum then becomes the LCS would suffer as more people would shift to digital, thus lowering the sales of the print versions, thus eliminating the higher profit margin, thus forcing them to raise the price of digital, thus making it cheaper for me to buy the print again )

Perry wrote: But again, four or even three bucks for digital ... no way.

Sadly, the more people buy those comics digitally at those prices, the more I see them hanging around at that price.

I think right now at the $2.99/$3.99 price points they are mining ex-print comic readers who either don't want to bother going to a comics shop -or- don't want to take up the space with physical stuff -or- other factors like this. As long as they get decent sales at these prices there's little incentive to drop prices on digital.

When I see arguments that the overhead of digital requires them to charge this amount all I can think is that someone other than the creators are making a lot of money if the digital support channels to move electrons around cost as much as physically printing, shipping, and giving LCS owners 40% (or so) of the pie.

Exactly. Yes, there is data storage space to consider. Yes, there are tech personnel that you must consider. But there is no-way having an option for me to click a link and download a file that was already used to create a actual comic, should cost the same as said comic.

I think digital comics could be given away and still make money. Because you could give away a copy of any comic with an 'ad page'. That ad page is updated regularly and provides the revenue every time that comic is read. So while a print comic gets the one-time ad revenue when the ad is placed, the digital comic gets it every time the comic is read.

boshuda wrote:I think digital comics could be given away and still make money. Because you could give away a copy of any comic with an 'ad page'. That ad page is updated regularly and provides the revenue every time that comic is read. So while a print comic gets the one-time ad revenue when the ad is placed, the digital comic gets it every time the comic is read.

I think this is how a lot of "traditional" webcomics try to monetize themselves. I'm talking about stuff developed directly for the web & not print comics offered in digital format.

So you're basically saying the print companies should learn from the people who developed comics native to the web.

BobBretall wrote:

boshuda wrote:I think digital comics could be given away and still make money. Because you could give away a copy of any comic with an 'ad page'. That ad page is updated regularly and provides the revenue every time that comic is read. So while a print comic gets the one-time ad revenue when the ad is placed, the digital comic gets it every time the comic is read.

I think this is how a lot of "traditional" webcomics try to monetize themselves. I'm talking about stuff developed directly for the web & not print comics offered in digital format.

So you're basically saying the print companies should learn from the people who developed comics native to the web.

Sort of. I was thinking more along the lines of Television ads. When you watch reruns of I Love Lucy on TV Land the Lucky Strike commercials are replaced with Fat Loss pills or something. So even though I Love Lucy was created decades ago it's monetized to this day - but I don't cut a check to TV Land to watch it.

Every page in a traditional comic that used to have an ad would now instead have an ad template. When you connected to the interwebs your comic reader app would refresh the ads. Then while reading the comic the ad-template page would be replaced with one of these ads.

I think it's roughly the same for comics developed directly for the web, like Waid's ThrillBent stuff. Just replace a 'panel' every once in a while with an ad. Pandora replaces a song with an ad. The model exists.

boshuda wrote:

BobBretall wrote:

boshuda wrote:I think digital comics could be given away and still make money. Because you could give away a copy of any comic with an 'ad page'. That ad page is updated regularly and provides the revenue every time that comic is read. So while a print comic gets the one-time ad revenue when the ad is placed, the digital comic gets it every time the comic is read.

I think this is how a lot of "traditional" webcomics try to monetize themselves. I'm talking about stuff developed directly for the web & not print comics offered in digital format.

So you're basically saying the print companies should learn from the people who developed comics native to the web.

Sort of. I was thinking more along the lines of Television ads. When you watch reruns of I Love Lucy on TV Land the Lucky Strike commercials are replaced with Fat Loss pills or something. So even though I Love Lucy was created decades ago it's monetized to this day - but I don't cut a check to TV Land to watch it.

Every page in a traditional comic that used to have an ad would now instead have an ad template. When you connected to the interwebs your comic reader app would refresh the ads. Then while reading the comic the ad-template page would be replaced with one of these ads.

I think it's roughly the same for comics developed directly for the web, like Waid's ThrillBent stuff. Just replace a 'panel' every once in a while with an ad. Pandora replaces a song with an ad. The model exists.

Part of the problem with this model is it would require a connection to read; essentially you would be streaming the comic. One of the things fans cried about when digital comics were first getting started was they wanted to be able to download the files. The model to rotate in current ads does not work once the file is downloaded and stored locally.

It’s a no win situation, go with your model people say why pay for something you don’t “own”. Go with the current model people say it is too expensive.

fudd71 wrote: It’s a no win situation, go with your model people say why pay for something you don’t “own”. Go with the current model people say it is too expensive.

Well not really a no win if they offer the current model at a more reasonable price. I can own, you can get paid. Every'a body'a wins

fudd71 wrote:

boshuda wrote: Sort of. I was thinking more along the lines of Television ads. When you watch reruns of I Love Lucy on TV Land the Lucky Strike commercials are replaced with Fat Loss pills or something. So even though I Love Lucy was created decades ago it's monetized to this day - but I don't cut a check to TV Land to watch it.

Every page in a traditional comic that used to have an ad would now instead have an ad template. When you connected to the interwebs your comic reader app would refresh the ads. Then while reading the comic the ad-template page would be replaced with one of these ads.

I think it's roughly the same for comics developed directly for the web, like Waid's ThrillBent stuff. Just replace a 'panel' every once in a while with an ad. Pandora replaces a song with an ad. The model exists.

Part of the problem with this model is it would require a connection to read; essentially you would be streaming the comic. One of the things fans cried about when digital comics were first getting started was they wanted to be able to download the files. The model to rotate in current ads does not work once the file is downloaded and stored locally.

It’s a no win situation, go with your model people say why pay for something you don’t “own”. Go with the current model people say it is too expensive.

It doesn't require a connection to read - it could be done with bursts. While your device is connected what ads you viewed gets uploaded to the server and new ads get pushed to your device for the next time you read a comic.

I suspect the long-term answer will lie somewhere in between. There will probably be a lower fee than we currently have (because - seriously $3.99 for a digital comic when print is cheaper and a digital movie or song is cheaper? Effin' crazy.), but some of the cost will be subsidized with ad revenue.

boshuda wrote: I suspect the long-term answer will lie somewhere in between. There will probably be a lower fee than we currently have (because - seriously $3.99 for a digital comic when print is cheaper and a digital movie or song is cheaper? Effin' crazy.), but some of the cost will be subsidized with ad revenue.

Something that was brought up on a show recently (I don’t remember which one exactly), John questioned how Marvel ad sales were doing. This is a question I have long had as well. Seems like when I was a kid there were a ton of ads in comic books, heck most from my generation even seem to remember certain ads fondly. But since returning to the hobby a few years back it seems that ads are almost non-existent. Yes there are ads, but seeming not as many, and seemingly very few that don’t tie directly to the comic or publisher. I don’t read any Marvel books, but I know DC seems to mainly have house ads and related. By related I mean in the company, the licensed shoes with DC characters, the TBS ads for syndicated Big Bang Theory (a show distributed by WB), another television show distributed by WB with comic artwork, the Arrow television show, ads for Basketball on Turner broadcasting (owned by WB) and house ads. The only completely outside ads I remember are the Milk ads, and they seem to have disappeared as of late too. The non-DC books I read seem to have no ads, except a few pages of publisher house ads at the back of the book. I’m not sure selling ad space in comics is really a viable revenue stream anymore. If it were I am sure we would see more of them.

For the all the talk about how much comic prices have gone up, what isn’t talked about is ad sales. Ads use to be a huge revenue source for comic publishers and seemingly don’t exist anymore. I’m sure a large part of the reason we have seen the cost of comics double in last 10 years or so is because of that loss of ad revenue.

fudd71 wrote:

boshuda wrote: I suspect the long-term answer will lie somewhere in between. There will probably be a lower fee than we currently have (because - seriously $3.99 for a digital comic when print is cheaper and a digital movie or song is cheaper? Effin' crazy.), but some of the cost will be subsidized with ad revenue.

Something that was brought up on a show recently (I don’t remember which one exactly), John questioned how Marvel ad sales were doing. This is a question I have long had as well. Seems like when I was a kid there were a ton of ads in comic books, heck most from my generation even seem to remember certain ads fondly. But since returning to the hobby a few years back it seems that ads are almost non-existent. Yes there are ads, but seeming not as many, and seemingly very few that don’t tie directly to the comic or publisher. I don’t read any Marvel books, but I know DC seems to mainly have house ads and related. By related I mean in the company, the licensed shoes with DC characters, the TBS ads for syndicated Big Bang Theory (a show distributed by WB), another television show distributed by WB with comic artwork, the Arrow television show, ads for Basketball on Turner broadcasting (owned by WB) and house ads. The only completely outside ads I remember are the Milk ads, and they seem to have disappeared as of late too. The non-DC books I read seem to have no ads, except a few pages of publisher house ads at the back of the book. I’m not sure selling ad space in comics is really a viable revenue stream anymore. If it were I am sure we would see more of them.

For the all the talk about how much comic prices have gone up, what isn’t talked about is ad sales. Ads use to be a huge revenue source for comic publishers and seemingly don’t exist anymore. I’m sure a large part of the reason we have seen the cost of comics double in last 10 years or so is because of that loss of ad revenue.

I think you're right about the loss of ad revenue. I think it's slightly different in a digital comic with the methodology I've outlined. For one thing the ads wouldn't be stale (to a point). The another there would be some minimum amount of time you spend looking at them while the page loads and you have to determine it's an ad. Depending on how consumers reacted to them, they could be streaming video, have forced amounts of time to watch them, etc. And there would be tracking about how many people actually see them.

I don't think we should underestimate the commitment to the LCS that publishers are giving regarding the price of digital comics. Like any industry that sells products through a distributor, you can't undercut your distributors by selling through them while at the same time selling your products direct at a lower price.

I believe this is the main reason that digital is the same price as printed.