Mayo Report: 2010-08 Comics

[heroesmask]

I've been reading X-Men pretty solid for over 25 years and my collection goes back further than that. I don't consider Namor an X-Man. I guess he's a mutant in the true sense of the word but, he wasn't born any different than he should have been. If you cross an Atlantean and a human Namor is what you get. This is no different in the Marvel Universe context than a human and an alien procreating. I wouldn't necessarily consider them mutants.

The other issue I have is that his current series is Namor: The First Mutant. I think Marvel continuity has proven out that Namor is not the first mutant. Apocalypse I believe is the first mutant and there have been others shown throughout history. Wolverine being born in the 1800's is probably older than Namor at this point. Maybe they are referring to Namor in relation that he was the first mutant to appear chronologically in Marvel publishing? Needless to say I'm not picking the book up.

I think there are too many X-Books out and I pretty much get them all, so I am the reason they keep at it. There are several reasons why I've started to pull back on the monthly side. Price increases, I'm trying to stay away from $3.99 titles partially to be budget conscious and partially to send a message. Another reason is too many titles are starting up running for 8-12 issues and then being canceled. Once canceled then they release a single hard cover or collected edition for the book. For example X-23 and Daken, both characters I actually enjoy and a writer I enjoy (Marjorie Liu), but I doubt either of those books make it to issue 25. So I'd rather wait and get a collected edition of each title. Granted if everyone starts to follow this philosophy short runs become a self fulfilling prophecy.

As far as Curse of the Mutants goes, it's pretty limited to the new adjectiveless X-Men book. I haven't read Namor so I can't comment on the tie in. There are no tie-ins to the other X-Titles at all. Uncanny is doing "The Five Lights" lead in to Generation Hope right now. Legacy is focusing on Rogue and Magneto. I see CotM as a mini event as opposed to a storyline because it does have several tie-ins. Upcoming stories that are being heavily promoted in the X-World like "Fall of the New Mutants" I would consider storylines as they don't cross or have tie-ins.

On the topic of Shadowland, I can easily see someone picking up the main mini and not Daredevil. Some people just collect events. They want to know what's going on in the universe as a whole but not the books themselves. I know many people that never collected Green Lantern, didn't get either monthly of GL or Corp and picked up Blackest Night. Same thing with Secret Invasion, Siege,etc. I agree that it's hard to believe that someone would care enough to pick up the mini but have no interest in the monthly but it happens quite a bit. Shadowland has a diverse set of characters with Elektra, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, etc. So there may be people picking it up for that alone. Plus it's kind of also billed as a New York street level event on top of a DD event. So characters like The Punisher and Spider-Man also fit.

Just my two cents. Good job guys.

[BobBretall]

I agree about Namor, does not seem mutant-y to me!

Maybe they are referring to Namor in relation that he was the first mutant to appear chronologically in Marvel publishing?

Good points on Wolvie & Apocalypse.....chronological Marvel publishing is the only place Namor gets a "1st"

Good points all around, though....esp. about the "event only" buying some people may exhibit......

[StephenSpine]

Well as always gentlemen a very entertaining thought provoking episode.

Bob hand on heart,with 'presence of mind', I use the FOC EVERY week from Diamond UK, it is such an important tool to use in the industry right now in this new dark age of average lower unit sales per title.

Another week, another handful of reprints from Marvel, which is hardly a sign of confidence in initial orders from the retail community.Although I have to mention that $3.99 has become a scape goat for the industries woes, that I don't really agree with.I can see that price is certainly a factor in regarding to
where to buy your comics from.

Now I can sympathize in why you would choose a service such as DCBS, when they offer a standard 40%, and an outstanding 75% off of preorders,and certainly on the scale that you and John purchase you could almost certainly buy direct from Diamond if you wished.Oh and this is me being absolutely impartial regarding the perceived positives of buying from a traditional walk in store, such as 'personal service',although your relationship with the processors at DCBS seems to duplicate this nicely.

When you say you won't pick up a book for $3.99, in actuality you mean you don't believe that book has a value of $2.39, about the price of a comic book in 2004/5,the price offered by DCBS in the October Excel order form.This implies to me that your decision is content based, weak creative teams etc, as opposed to a financial one.

One of the multitude of problems with the industry is lack of data regarding how many copies of a $3.99 are sold at full cover price, and its probably a critical factor in the future of comic pricing.Although comic books have always been discounted, the current discounts offered are almost impossible to pass up.
I certainly can't condemn a man for not wanting to subsidize my life style as a retailer, and deprive himself of more reading material.

That's beside the point, I think whats probably happening is that people have no problem really paying premium price for top draw talent, on top ten maybe top twenty books.
Things get a little murkier when we descend the ladder towards the non essentials, the proliferation of Thor or the diluting Deadpool to name and shame the current offenders, although why on earth Marvel want another 10 or 12 ISBN'S to neglect post May 2011 is anyone's guess, raise your glass to short term profits one and all!
(Don't get me started on Marvels frontlist trade sales, that's a subject for another day.)

John talked about 'American Son' in the episode as an example of waning interest in spin off titles.
It's an interesting example that highlights what exactly is the ratio of consumers who support a main title, in this case 'Amazing Spider-Man', who desire a comic featuring a supporting member of cast elevated to title character. Judging by the preordes from retailers, #1 was predicted to sell at 1 in 3 ratio to 'Amazing'.
By the end of the series the ratio is 1 in 4.

Now if we leap back 35 years to the 'ManWolf' series in 'Creatures on the Loose', a comic featuring a supporting member of cast elevated to title character, although you could happily debate what genre the ManWolf stories are, compared to 'American Son'.
I wonder if the ratio was any different?

At that time 'Amazing' was selling 280k-ish.
'Creatures on the Loose' got canceled after 7 issues featuring 'ManWolf', 100k cancellation point anyone?
Very rough (in my favour, to prove a vague point) 1 in 3ish ratio.

I can see why Marvel tried 'American Son', sales did initially increase on the opening chapter, although that seemed to be the case for the first year or so of Brand New Day, then dipped, then lifted on the last part, so it certainly seemed he could have been the break out character find of 2009.
I'm not at all sure that if Marvel had run the series inside 'Amazing' sales would have been buoyed, I certainly wouldn't have increased the order based on a return apperence, he was sooooooooooo 2009.

My main concerns for the industry is that there is a price to pay for 'maturity'.
Marvel is the problem I'm afraid to say.
The ancient adage, that a 'healthy Marvel is a healthy industry' may be more than folklore/ superstition.
Until they stop living in the fear of creating another Image situation, that is by promoting the artist in unison with the character, as opposed to the writer and the intellectual property, they will continue serving up 'pulp' stories competently drawn by artists in servitude to the writer.

I find it increasingly odd that they are sort of aiming at the 'Authority', 'Planetary', 'ABC' reader, on a tonal level, and succeeding in duplicating the aforementioned sales figures.
The industry has a very distorted version of what titles it actually supported back in the day,and its sobering to look over the figures you have recorded here.

Jonathan Hickmans FF is only selling 35k? Well I'd congratulate him,because the comic seems to be aimed directly at a consumer who enjoys the mechanics and appreciates the construction of plot, but this is not going to propel it up to the top ten, but it will ensure it has lovely reviews in the usual hall of mirrors.


Goodness look at the time...
Oh Bob I must say that I've really been enjoying the interviews you've conducted recently, the Mark Waid/ Stan Lee titles launch made me go and tweak the initial orders I placed across the line.
Oh and Radical comics, the indifference toward this line could make a man weep, the initial orders for Hotwire vol 2 #1 are an insult to all involved.

Keep it up chaps!

(All figures quoted are as accurate as one could hope for as we approach the midnight hour!)

[BobBretall]

Thanks for the thought-provoking post!

I'll comment on a couple of points

Now I can sympathize in why you would choose a service such as DCBS, when they offer a standard 40%, and an outstanding 75% off of preorders,and certainly on the scale that you and John purchase you could almost certainly buy direct from Diamond if you wished.Oh and this is me being absolutely impartial regarding the perceived positives of buying from a traditional walk in store, such as 'personal service',although your relationship with the processors at DCBS seems to duplicate this nicely.

I actually delayed in switching to DCBS for about a year & a half after I 1st learned about them. I was getting 25% off from my old LCS (with "sales tax forgiveness", so actually a bit more attractive, plus they threw in bags/boards. It was not until that LCS owner quit & moved out of state that I made the switch. Combo of not liking the 70 mile round trip to that location plus not really having the chemistry with the new owner.

I knew enough people using DCBS that I thought it was time to give them a try, and I've been very happy with them.

That said, I found a new LCS (only a 30 mile round trip) that I visit pretty much every week (on Wed, when I'm in town). I spend in the $20-$30 range there each week, picking up stuff I may have missed off the racks, they save the Spider-Man variant covers for me, and I pick up back issues & such. That said, I get ~15% off from the LCS, it's not as much as DCBS, but it's a nice gesture and I pass 3 other comic shops closer to my house (that give zero discounts) to give these guys my business.

When you say you won't pick up a book for $3.99, in actuality you mean you don't believe that book has a value of $2.39, about the price of a comic book in 2004/5,the price offered by DCBS in the October Excel order form.This implies to me that your decision is content based, weak creative teams etc, as opposed to a financial one.

You are correct. It raises the question of "are comics worth $3.99 vs. $2.99?" (Or $2.39 vs. $1.79 from DCBS).

By and large, for me, the answer is "NO". I get the top books I am very interested in, but anything that is not on my A-list of top favorites, I just skip it.

I'd be buying the Hulk books if they were $2.99, I like the Hulk, but I don't LOVE the Hulk, so at $3.99 I give them a pass.

Same for the "Chaos King" event. For most Marvel events, I have LIKED them, but not LOVED them. Some I thought were very mediocre. As a result, at $3.99, I'm giving the event a pass.

That's beside the point, I think whats probably happening is that people have no problem really paying premium price for top draw talent, on top ten maybe top twenty books.
Things get a little murkier when we descend the ladder towards the non essentials, the proliferation of Thor....

Exactly. If it's a creative team or character I absolutely love, I'll get it (a recent example being the "Warriors 3" mini written by Bill Willingham or the Thor "For Asgard" mini with art by Simone Bianchi). Similarly, I'm betting Ant-Man & Wasp written by Tim Seeley & Captain America: Man Out of Time written by Mark Waid.

I'm NOT getting Widowmaker, Klaws of the Panther, Iron Man: Rapture, Taskmaster, and a host of other books that I don't have a very strong feeling about the creative teams. I'd be getting all of these if they were $2.99 cover price.

With me it's the general principle that I won't pay the elevated price for just anything, I have to have a really solid reason.

[BobBretall]

One of the multitude of problems with the industry is lack of data regarding how many copies of a $3.99 are sold at full cover price, and its probably a critical factor in the future of comic pricing.Although comic books have always been discounted, the current discounts offered are almost impossible to pass up.

I'm not convinced that the industry really cares what the end price a book is sold at as long as they are getting their cut on selling the non-returnable books.

On-line retailers like DCBS have pluses & minuses. You have to pay shipping, you have to WAIT (even with weekly shipping, I get the books almost a week after they come out), PLUS you have to decide what you want & pay in advance.

Things like having what is ordered pre-paid for so they are not buying on speculation books that may just sit on the shelves reduce the overhead of DCBS and allow them to pass along the saving to customers.

Jonathan Hickmans FF is only selling 35k? Well I'd congratulate him,because the comic seems to be aimed directly at a consumer who enjoys the mechanics and appreciates the construction of plot, but this is not going to propel it up to the top ten, but it will ensure it has lovely reviews in the usual hall of mirrors.

True, and another example of how just putting out a damn good comic is not in any way a guarantee of top sales.

Oh Bob I must say that I've really been enjoying the interviews you've conducted recently, the Mark Waid/ Stan Lee titles launch made me go and tweak the initial orders I placed across the line.

Glad you're enjoying them! I do as many as I can...... Kind of slowed down the last couple of months as my workload ramped up in "the day job".

Oh and Radical comics, the indifference toward this line could make a man weep, the initial orders for Hotwire vol 2 #1 are an insult to all involved.

The cool reception that Radical books get from a lot of people amazes me, I almost get an air of "snobbery" from some people about how they don't want to get Radical books. Heaven forbid they should step outside of super-hero books from the Big 2 and get something different.

[torchsong]

So many topics, so little time. I'll try to be brief, for me -

StephenSpine - HELLUVA first post (I believe I saw that was your first one) and welcome to the forums.

When you say you won't pick up a book for $3.99, in actuality you mean you don't believe that book has a value of $2.39, about the price of a comic book in 2004/5,the price offered by DCBS in the October Excel order form.This implies to me that your decision is content based, weak creative teams etc, as opposed to a financial one.

Budgets are limited all around these days, particularly for non-essential (blasphemy, I know! ) things like comics. There was even a thread a while back where Bob said he'd had to cut back, and his monthly list usually has more pages than our recent health-care reform document!

So for me at least it's a combination of the two things you mention - content AND finances go into that decision. The books I see in Previews each month aren't just people selling me comics - they're applying for a job, and I can't afford to hire on people who don't get the job done for me. If you're asking too much money and not delivering the goods, why on earth would I hire you? There too, if you're asking for $3.99 but you can back it up with great art and storytelling, you've earned my business.

There was a time when I bought comics almost mechanically - This title (and all surrounding ones), This artist or writer (no matter what they were doing), This event (and all the side books that go with it). Those days are gone now. I'm forced to genuinely look at the books I'm going to buy and ask myself "Are they worth it? Do I truly *need* them?"

I don't think that's such a bad thing.

Now I can sympathize in why you would choose a service such as DCBS, when they offer a standard 40%, and an outstanding 75% off of preorders,and certainly on the scale that you and John purchase you could almost certainly buy direct from Diamond if you wished.Oh and this is me being absolutely impartial regarding the perceived positives of buying from a traditional walk in store, such as 'personal service',although your relationship with the processors at DCBS seems to duplicate this nicely.

Like Bob, I was not an early adopter of DCBS, but I think it's safe to say if they didn't exist I wouldn't be as deeply into this hobby as I am. Two years plus and running and I've never looked back. The wait time took only a little adjustment - it wasn't so difficult to replace New Comic Wednesday with The Big Box At The End of the Month Day - and the bottom line is the $50 I spend with DCBS goes much further than the $50 I spend at my LCS.

As an interesting corollary, the money I save using DCBS has actually put extra cash in my pocket that I can blow...where else? At my LCS.

Oh and Radical comics, the indifference toward this line could make a man weep, the initial orders for Hotwire vol 2 #1 are an insult to all involved.

I can only support so many books, eh? I tend to pick an independent publisher and throw as much as I can their way until they give me a reason not to. Currently with me that's gg Studios. I've enjoyed what I've read from them, so I throw as much bread as I can their way (for the titles I want to read). I feel like I'm making more of an impact by dedicating myself to buying a complete mini-series from a company so they know they have the sale, than jumping from company to company. Screwy logic, I know, but it's something I've done for a while now.

Until they stop living in the fear of creating another Image situation, that is by promoting the artist in unison with the character, as opposed to the writer and the intellectual property, they will continue serving up 'pulp' stories competently drawn by artists in servitude to the writer.

Don't get me started on "celebrity artists" - one of the best and worst things that have happened to the industry in the last 20 years. Certainly an improvement from the wage slave days of yore, and there's nothing wrong with talented creators getting their just due and having long lines of fans at the Cons. What I'm talking about are the artists and creators who've let this status go to their heads - so we get late books, dropped concepts, and in many cases shoddy product because they're on more titles than they can reasonably handle.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have a few artists whose work I seek out, but 97% of the time I make a concious effort to focus on the character, not the creator, when it comes to the comics I buy.

[BobBretall]

Price increases, I'm trying to stay away from $3.99 titles partially to be budget conscious and partially to send a message.

In related news, DC Drops prices on most $3.99 books back to $2.99:
http://www.comicbookpage.com/forum/view ... 0061#10061

Maybe more people need to switch from Marvel $3.99'ers over to DC $2.99'ers. That would certainly send a message.

[LA Rabbit]

Enjoyed the most recent updated on Diamond Sales. Always makes you think. Thanks.

I have a few related but outside the scope of the podcast questions that you can respond to or ignore at your leisure.

I went to Long Beach Comic Con (great time by the way) and could not get over the volume of steeply discounted new comics and trades. Admittedly it was overwhelmingly Marvel, but I was just surprised to see very recent issues in the 50 cent bins. I don't know what they pay for books but you can't be making money at 50 cent bins for new comics? Even in the dollar bins, I don't think you are making good money. Most places had piles of $5 trades and 1/2 off hardcover. Is there any profit being made there or is it break even at best? I don't know how those places stay in business like that. It is one thing to clear out inventory once in awhile or maybe buy a bunch of bulk old issues and dump them in bins but for me it was odd seeing new comics in the 50 cent bins. (worked for me to finally get Thor Mighty Avenger).

I understand that every business has turnover, and the more savy businesses/customers can take advantage of the mistakes by newbies. Bob's recent auction haul from that Las Vegas store is an example. However I would think that in this economy, not as many new people are opening diamond retailer accounts. Do you have any idea, speculation, wild guess about the rough number of retailers that start and stop ordering from Diamond in any given year?

The short of it (I have given the long) is that I wonder if we will continue to see such volume of deals at these little shows. I am enjoying the discounts but I do feel a bit like a vulture. However maybe I have it wrong and they can eek out a profit at $5 trades, 1/2 price hardcovers and $1 bins (I just don't see how 50 cent bins work for new comics). Thanks.

[BobBretall]

I went to Long Beach Comic Con (great time by the way) and could not get over the volume of steeply discounted new comics and trades. Admittedly it was overwhelmingly Marvel, but I was just surprised to see very recent issues in the 50 cent bins. I don't know what they pay for books but you can't be making money at 50 cent bins for new comics? Even in the dollar bins, I don't think you are making good money. Most places had piles of $5 trades and 1/2 off hardcover. Is there any profit being made there or is it break even at best? I don't know how those places stay in business like that. It is one thing to clear out inventory once in awhile or maybe buy a bunch of bulk old issues and dump them in bins but for me it was odd seeing new comics in the 50 cent bins. (worked for me to finally get Thor Mighty Avenger).

I have some thoughts on the topic that may cover some (most?) of the dealer instances at the average con.

Comics:
Cheap comics fall into 2 categories:
1) Older books that have low demand because they do not have a hot name/storyline + there are plenty of them around. This applies mostly to cheap comics with recognizable characters like Captain America, Conan, The Avengers, etc.
-> Another variant to this are series that have come & gone and have no intrinsic name recognition to the average fan so are being blown out. A lot of these are really good story/art but there is no demand. SciSpy, Radical titles from last year (Caliber, Hercules, City of Dust) plenty of Image/Dark Horse/IDW minis, etc.

2) New books that have passed their shelf life. This one is kind of interesting. There are a lot of dealers who just are not set up to carry back issues (or are not interested in carrying them) except for certain HOT-HOT-HOT titles or variant covers. These dealers do the majority of the sales on a comic in the first couple of weeks after it comes out. With a certainty, after the next issue comes out it is "dead to them". If they are ordering right, they made their money on the "x minus 2 or 3" copies they sold during that first month, so blowing out those last couple of copies for a buck or 50 cents just gets the book out of their hair so they don't have to deal with it as a back issue.
-> An adjunct to this are dealers who sell books like this to someone in bulk for maybe a quarter a piece to get rid of them, then that person goes around to shows manning the $1 bins.

The real key here is that the original buyer has made their profit off initial sales and has decided that getting 50 cents or $1 for them, taking a small loss on that book, but getting some capital to buy more new stuff and not having to manage backstock makes more business sense.

==> The case not covered here is where dealers buy out bankrupt stores and get stuff for pennies on the $. Blowing stuff out cheap allows them to convert those pennies to return on their investment quicker. The trade-off here is taking $ now instead of maybe $$$ 3 years from now.


Trades:
1) Some of these may fall into a corollary to #2 for comics. A dealer bought some trades that are just not selling. They've had them in their shop for 6+ months (and maybe tried selling at a higher price at a previous show) but no customers are biting. Again, the choice is blow it out and take a small loss now or hang onto it cluttering up your stock space in hopes that someone will come in at some indeterminate point in the future willing to buy it for more.

2) MORE COMMONLY - People selling cheap trades who ARE NOT the original purchaser of the books from Diamond. They either got them from a bankrupt store, or purchased the stock in bulk from a retailer in category #1 above who needed some quick cash & stock reduction.
NOTE: I know one of the dealers we both bought cheap trades from at LBCC. I asked him point blank if he paid full price for the books and he told me that he had bought them cheap to re-sell at shows. So HE was making money, the person who lost money was someone upstream from him.

[LA Rabbit]

Thanks for the reply. It is strange to see so few back issues at most the stores I go to. I think Comics Factory is the only place I somewhat regularly visit that keeps them in stock.

I guess it was just the volume of books (at what was a small show) that took me off guard. I figured at some point the stores would self-correct their orders so that they would be continual dumping.

However on the flip side, if those re-sellers that go to the show are willing to visit many stores and get a few from each, it could create the necessary mass of product. Still seems like quite a bit of work for not that much profit.

I guess I can cross off comic book seller as the quick way to become the next Warren Buffett.

[BobBretall]

I guess it was just the volume of books (at what was a small show) that took me off guard. I figured at some point the stores would self-correct their orders so that they would be continual dumping.

Maybe you were seeing something different than I was seeing. I was not seeing tons of copies of the same issue be sold cheap, but maybe 1 or 2 of a given issue (with the exception of maybe a #1 where orders could have been way off or they ordered big to get some incentive cover).
It's pretty easy to be off by 1 or 2 (out of 10 or 20) if you are not selling to a consistent "pull list" customer base.

However on the flip side, if those re-sellers that go to the show are willing to visit many stores and get a few from each, it could create the necessary mass of product. Still seems like quite a bit of work for not that much profit.

I don't think the re-sellers physically prowl around to lots of stores gobbling up 1s & 2s from each. Maybe this reference is to the people with cheap trades. I think those come from some centralized place.

[Trev]

I know that one of my local shops has a deal with the Half Price Books down the road and they dump all their odds and ends there. Half Price pays a bulk rate for them.