Mayo Report - 2008-02

[HassanT]

Awesome show guys!! Just a few thoughts:

- I agree that it makes no sense to have a whole bunch of fill-in writers on Blue Beetle, especially after a end of a major story-arc that guest stared the JLI members. It makes a) an easy jumping off point for existing readers and b) any additional reader you might have gotten from that issue would be gone by the next. I think to a certain extent you can have a fill-in on Superman or Batman, but for any other book, it ruins any momentum you might had on the book. DC has made this mistake constantly over the past two years that it seems to be an overall philosophy that needs to be changed really soon.

- I agree that the idea that trades will make up for sales of the monthly is not true and if that does happen, it is more an exception than a rule. Comics that tend to sell real bad in the monthly format don't sell well in trade format as well. There have been so many creators (including Ed Brubaker) that has said if people don't support the monthly format, the series might not continue to feed the trades. I do wait for certain books to come out in trade, but those are either a) books that I used to buy in monthly format but are successful enough that the trades will always come out (i.e. Hellboy or Fables) b) I discovered them as trades and never went back to monthlies.

What I have started to do is if I am interested in an indy book, I buy the monthly to support the book. I started to read Fear Agent and Goon monthly. Even the two newest Vertigo books for May and June, I pre-ordered the monthly books to support those books based on Vertigo's recent track record.

Funny story about the waiting-for-the trade mentality, a few weeks ago I asked which issue of Goon would be a good place to start reading. I specifically said I don't want to start with a trade but with a monthly comic book. Every single person recommended me a trade!!
So, for me to try out a new book, I need to spend around 15 bucks even though there is a monthly comic out for 2.99 that I could try instead?

Hassan

[JohnMayo]

So, for me to try out a new book, I need to spend around 15 bucks even though there is a monthly comic out for 2.99 that I could try instead?

That is one of the biggest ironies of the trade paperback format. While it can be a great deal for existing readers it is a much bigger gamble for new readers. Expecting a new reader to spend $15 to sample a title is crazy. Particularly when many titles aren't getting sampled at the $2.99 price.

[jkarguth]

Thank you, that point is one of the exact reasons I don't want to go to an all TPB format. I feel ripped off when I get a bad comic for three bucks. I really don't want to experience that with the money and poor story multiplied.

[JohnMayo]

The only titles I get in trades are Empowered (which is only in trades), Sentinels (which is direct to trade) and titles from a particular small press publisher which I got annoyed with after having them cancel a few titles mid-story and then release as trades.

Everything else I get in the periodical format.

But that is as much because that is what I got hooked on reading way back when. For newer readers, I can understand the appeal of the trades.

While waiting for the trades can and does hurt the longevity of titles, that is the publishers fault, not the readers. The publishers made it a viable alternative to the periodical format and have paying the price.

The unfortunate thing is that there an entire generation of readers that has been raised in this market of instant collected editions. It seems like it would be smart for publishers like DC and Marvel to actively experiment with direct to trade projects and figure out a viable business model based on them. Many smaller publishers are going in this direction. More importantly, it seems like the readers are moving in this direction.

[HassanT]

John,

Did you noticed in the July solicits both Atom and Catwoman are canceled? You called it.

[JohnMayo]

John,

Did you noticed in the July solicits both Atom and Catwoman are canceled? You called it.

I haven't had time to go through the new solicitations yet but I'm not surprised.

Catwoman has been going on about six months longer than I expected. I figured when she was featured in the Batman and the Outsiders in house ad that was sort of unofficially announcing that her title would be ending shortly.

The Atom, maybe DC wanted to test the waters with Rick Remender and see if he would do with stuff in the DC universe.

The bottom line is that titles have to sell enough to at least break even and if they don't they get canceled. DC has a number of titles in this "danger zone".

[BobBretall]

I also think there is a "critical mass" point for titles, beyond which any company (DC or MARVEL) is just publishing too damn many books. The B-list & C-list titles are going to fall by the wayside if they do not click with fans and post big numbers pretty quickly.

Most fans just cannot collect everything (even if they want to) and books are going to die off as a result.....

[Lobo]

Have you ever looked at how DC & Marvel are trending from month to month/annually?

From CBGXtra.com

Code: Select all

 
FEBRUARY 2007    
COMPANY      UNITS  DOLLARS  
Marvel       47.38%  42.35%  
DC           34.93%  32.80%  
Dark Horse    2.96%   4.26%  
Image         2.78%   2.75% 

AUGUST 2007
COMPANY      UNITS  DOLLARS  
Marvel       45.61%  41.39%  
DC           35.46%  31.88%  
Dark Horse    2.91%   3.93%  
Image         3.24%   3.57%  

FEBRUARY 2008   
COMPANY      UNITS  DOLLARS  
Marvel       41.97%  37.82%  
DC           33.32%  30.23% 
Dark Horse    5.85%   7.17% 
Image         3.38%   3.60%

It's too bad this page isn't more up to date: http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1644

Nearly 10 years ago (May 1998) we had a much more level playing field, with Marvel's market share at 24.22%, DC at 23.67%, Image at 17.09% and Dark Horse at 5.17%.

Random thoughts...

While Nightwing may have sold more units than ASB&R, did DC actually profit more from Nightwing (after page rates, printing and distribution costs)?

In other words, is it more profitable to sell 90k copies quarterly or 30k copies monthly?

Amazon only has one Simon Dark TPB listed for pre-order.

About waiting for the trade - and then not buying it. Are we at the point where people are only willing to pay so much for a trade, and if they can't buy it for the price they want (after discounting), then they just aren't buying it?

I've seen a number of people complaining (on forums) that the retail prices of trades seems to be going up (which I predicted I don't even remember how many months ago) in one of the many trades vs monthlies debates online.

I believe I said something along the lines of, "if publishers are selling fewer monthlies, of course they're going to make their money back by raising the prices of trades."

Is DC diluting sales by publishing too many Teen Titans titles? I don't know. Is Marvel diluting sales by publishing too many X-related titles?

As for the series of mini-series models, it seems that DC & Marvel have been doing this the last few years with event-related mini-series, probably based upon the Sin City / Hellboy model.

Do you think DC really needs to keep publishing The Atom so that Ray Palmer has a title to return to at the end of Final Crisis? Wouldn't it be just as easy to have him launch a new title? I'm wondering if DC is continuing to publish titles beyond when they appear to be profitable so that they don't appear to be giving up market share. How much worse would DC's market share look if they canceled all of their titles selling below 20k?

It'll be interesting to see if Spawn re-takes Image's #1 spot when two Image founders take over the title with issue #185. Todd estimates at least 12 issues from the new creative team, which will lead into Spawn #200.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=16143

If you'd have to be crazy to buy everything in the top 300, does that mean you'd have to be half-crazy to buy half of the top 300?

[BobBretall]

It'll be interesting to see if Spawn re-takes Image's #1 spot when two Image founders take over the title with issue #185.

I guess I'll be dropping Spawn with #185 then. The only reason I've been getting it is for Hine/Haberlin.....

[Lobo]

I guess I'll be dropping Spawn with #185 then. The only reason I've been getting it is for Hine/Haberlin.....

If more people were, or were at least talking about it and convincing other people to pick it up, perhaps we wouldn't be seeing the change in the creative team with #185.

When did they take over? What's a good "jumping on" point?

I may have to look into getting some trades.

[BobBretall]

Hine took over the writing at issue #150, but the art was by Phillip Tan at that point.

Brian Haberlin took over on art with issue #166, and that is when I started picking up Spawn for the 1st time in over 10 years. It was the team of Hine/Haberlin that I was following, as opposed to the characters. But the story is pretty interesting, so chalk that up to Hine. I might actually work my way back to his start at #150 at some point. Haberlin was absent for #174/175, but is back with the latest issue that I have, #176. The 2-part story in 174/175 was exceptionally good, even without the Haberlin art.

From the inside front cover:

As Armageddon consumed the world, Spawn turned against his masters, destroying all life on Earth. While God & Satan continue their endless conflict in a parallel universe, Spawn has re-created the world and resurrected the human race in what has become known as the White Light. The portals to Heaven & Hell are now closed, leaving humanity free from the influence of angels & demons.
Now the cracks in Spawn's brave new world are showing. The demons Ab & Zab, trapped on Earth after the White Light, are doing what they do best - creating mischief.

I'll also point out that Spawn has to hold some kind of record for "most issues solicited & not shipped". I have 5 issues (#178-182) on order, whereas most titles run in the 2-3 issue backlog range.

[HassanT]

I'll also point out that Spawn has to hold some kind of record for "most issues solicited & not shipped". I have 5 issues (#178-182) on order, whereas most titles run in the 2-3 issue backlog range.

I am sure that they break their own record when two Image founders take over the book

[Lobo]

I'll also point out that Spawn has to hold some kind of record for "most issues solicited & not shipped". I have 5 issues (#178-182) on order, whereas most titles run in the 2-3 issue backlog range.

I'm waiting for WALKING DEAD #48 from DCBS & #49-51 from Heroes Corner.

[BobBretall]

I'll also point out that Spawn has to hold some kind of record for "most issues solicited & not shipped". I have 5 issues (#178-182) on order, whereas most titles run in the 2-3 issue backlog range.

I'm waiting for WALKING DEAD #48 from DCBS & #49-51 from Heroes Corner.

Fair enough, I have #48-52 on order for Walking Dead.....

Hmmmm, I wonder what Walking Dead & Spawn have in common??

I guess when you're the top 2 books at Image, you can afford to ship late on a regular basis with impunity and still have people order your books as more are solicited.....

Seems like both of these should skip a month on solicits until they catch up....

[JohnMayo]

Have you ever looked at how DC & Marvel are trending from month to month/annually?

From CBGXtra.com

Code: Select all

 
FEBRUARY 2007    
COMPANY      UNITS  DOLLARS  
Marvel       47.38%  42.35%  
DC           34.93%  32.80%  
Dark Horse    2.96%   4.26%  
Image         2.78%   2.75% 

AUGUST 2007
COMPANY      UNITS  DOLLARS  
Marvel       45.61%  41.39%  
DC           35.46%  31.88%  
Dark Horse    2.91%   3.93%  
Image         3.24%   3.57%  

FEBRUARY 2008   
COMPANY      UNITS  DOLLARS  
Marvel       41.97%  37.82%  
DC           33.32%  30.23% 
Dark Horse    5.85%   7.17% 
Image         3.38%   3.60%

It's too bad this page isn't more up to date: http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1644

Nearly 10 years ago (May 1998) we had a much more level playing field, with Marvel's market share at 24.22%, DC at 23.67%, Image at 17.09% and Dark Horse at 5.17%.

John Jackson Miller has been posting his numbers at www.comichron.com. And the March data only just came out this past week.

I agree completely that there was amuch more level playing field in terms of the breakdowns a decade ago and that we were all better off for it.

Random thoughts...

While Nightwing may have sold more units than ASB&R, did DC actually profit more from Nightwing (after page rates, printing and distribution costs)?

In other words, is it more profitable to sell 90k copies quarterly or 30k copies monthly?

I can't really comment on profitability. Nightwing brought in more money but not knowing the page rates for Nightwing versus All Star Batman and Robin, I have no idea which was more profitable for DC.

In general, all other things being equal, a 90k quaterly would be more profitable than a 30k monthly since the production costs would be a third as high. That having been said, sales would probably be more stable at the monthly frequency than the quaterly one.

Amazon only has one Simon Dark TPB listed for pre-order.

Not surprising given how new the series is. Only 6 or 7 issues have come out so far. It would be foolish for DC to not do a second trade since they will have the contents and it should be trivial to compile them into a trade.

About waiting for the trade - and then not buying it. Are we at the point where people are only willing to pay so much for a trade, and if they can't buy it for the price they want (after discounting), then they just aren't buying it?

I'm not sure if it is a price issue or a lack of interest issue. I'm guessing lack of interest.

I've seen a number of people complaining (on forums) that the retail prices of trades seems to be going up (which I predicted I don't even remember how many months ago) in one of the many trades vs monthlies debates online.

Yeah. I'm surprise that people haven't been seeing this coming. Particularly those who seem to thing that monthly comics should be ditched in favor of trades. Original content trades would probably be $5 to $10 more expensive since there would be no monthly comics to recoup the cost of the content creation.

I believe I said something along the lines of, "if publishers are selling fewer monthlies, of course they're going to make their money back by raising the prices of trades."

Seems fairly obvious to me too. I think some people forget this is a hobby for the readers but a business for the publishers.

Is DC diluting sales by publishing too many Teen Titans titles? I don't know. Is Marvel diluting sales by publishing too many X-related titles?

Marvel ramped up the X-Men titles over time. DC jumped from a single Titans title to two ongoing monthlies and three mini-series in short order. X-Men is usually at or near the top of the sales charts. Teen Titans is around the 50,000 mark. DC should have limited themselves to a single Teen Titan spinoff miniseries at a time.

As for the series of mini-series models, it seems that DC & Marvel have been doing this the last few years with event-related mini-series, probably based upon the Sin City / Hellboy model.

Or they are simply conceeding that most new ongoing titles only last a year or two. It is much less noticeable to simply not do another miniseries for a character or team than to cancel the ongoing title.

Do you think DC really needs to keep publishing The Atom so that Ray Palmer has a title to return to at the end of Final Crisis? Wouldn't it be just as easy to have him launch a new title? I'm wondering if DC is continuing to publish titles beyond when they appear to be profitable so that they don't appear to be giving up market share. How much worse would DC's market share look if they canceled all of their titles selling below 20k?

I wasn't saying that the needed to keep publishing the All New Atom so Ray Palmer might have a title to slide into so much as that was such as "bg picture" reason was one of the only possible things I could come up with for continuing such a low selling title.

I think that using it to test writers new to DC like Rick Remender makes sense as that have little to nothing to lose if it tanks. I mean, when you are selling at or below 15,000 there is a lot more room for growth than for losing readers.

It'll be interesting to see if Spawn re-takes Image's #1 spot when two Image founders take over the title with issue #185. Todd estimates at least 12 issues from the new creative team, which will lead into Spawn #200.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=16143

That will be interesting. While it might bump up the sales initially, I would expect it to then start the usual downward sales trend. Certainly the bump could easily overcome the 1,500 unit lead that Walking Dead has right now but long term, Walking Dead has the advantage.

If you'd have to be crazy to buy everything in the top 300, does that mean you'd have to be half-crazy to buy half of the top 300?

Hey, I resemble that remark...