Simon Dark Numbers

[Lord Shaper]

You mentioned on the last Mayo Report that you think that Simon Dark is going to be cancelled due to the number's it's selling.

If it was to be a non DCU title as it was originally planned and lets say was a Vertigo title do you think it still would be on the chopping block?

[Lobo]

This goes against the conventional wisdom that holds companies "know" people wait for the trade.

[BobBretall]

You mentioned on the last Mayo Report that you think that Simon Dark is going to be cancelled due to the number's it's selling.
If it was to be a non DCU title as it was originally planned and lets say was a Vertigo title do you think it still would be on the chopping block?

No, it would not be on the chopping block if it ware a "non-mainstream" book.

Feb #s for Simon Dark were 15,350. That's in the danger zone for a DCU book, however, there are Wildstorm books that seem to be able to survive on 9-11,000, and Vertigo titles that (if the trade business is solid) seem to be OK down to 7k.

For Vertigo, even with trades, I would be worried about Crossing Midnight (5,344) and Un-Men (4,921). I base this on the fact that Army@Love did 5,773 and they ended it with #12, allegedly the end of it's "1st season", but still, not strong #s.

I defer to the further analysis of my co-host & numbers-master.

[BobBretall]

This goes against the conventional wisdom that holds companies "know" people wait for the trade.

I would say that there is a tipping point where a title needs to sell a certain amount to sustain itself, regardless of downstream trade business. I also think the Vertigo business model is more reliant/tolerant of the trade business to carry them through.

John, some analysis on Vertigo trades being a more "relatively sustainable" business than trades featuring minor DCU characters??

[Lobo]

I would say that there is a tipping point where a title needs to sell a certain amount to sustain itself, regardless of downstream trade business. I also think the Vertigo business model is more reliant/tolerant of the trade business to carry them through.

John, some analysis on Vertigo trades being a more "relatively sustainable" business than trades featuring minor DCU characters??

This goes back to my assertion that Simon Dark should have been released as a Vertigo title, as it was originally intended.

http://tinyurl.com/67c9s2

[BobBretall]

This goes back to my assertion that Simon Dark should have been released as a Vertigo title, as it was originally intended.
http://tinyurl.com/67c9s2

I won't argue that point. I love Simon Dark, but it's connection to the core DCU is tenuous at best. They could have easily done this as Vertigo, and the numbers seem to say they should have.

[comicm]

I hope they don't cancel my Edward Sisorhands of the comic book superheros. I really enjoy but comics that are not with mainstream characters don't seem to last very long. Bloodhound, Chase, Chornos, Hourman, Resurrection Man, Monolith.....etc. They are all titles I have enjoyed but we are lucky to get through 2 years.

[JohnMayo]

You mentioned on the last Mayo Report that you think that Simon Dark is going to be cancelled due to the number's it's selling.

If it was to be a non DCU title as it was originally planned and lets say was a Vertigo title do you think it still would be on the chopping block?

We didn't say Simon Dark was going to be canceled, just that we expected it to be canceled. Subtle distinction but and important one. DC could keep this title going for a while if they want to. Heck, Hawkgirl lasted a lot longer than I expected it to.

And I'm surprised that they are retooling the All New Atom and not just replacing it with another title (be it an Atom title or a different character). My theory on this is that they need the title to be around long enough for Ray Palmer to drop by and reveal that he has no idea who Ryan is. (I suspect that Lex Luthor was behind the letters, etc.) This is the sort of DCU "big picture" reason that I think is keep that title afloat.

But Bob and I were just talking about the Simon Dark sales. Here is what we discussed:

If Simon Dark was a Vertigo title it probably would be selling about half as many copies, say 8,000 to 9,000. But it would probably be a bit less likely to get canceled as Vertigo titles seem to be allowed to sell lower. Part of that is because those titles tend to do better in trade than the average DCU title. It will be interesting to see how the first Simon Dark trade does. Really, aside from the name of the city, the story has no connection to the DCU as far as I can tell. (Of course, I'm a few issues behind so that could have changed in those issues.)

If Simon Dark was published by Dark Horse or Image, it would probably be in the 4,000 to 5,000 range. That would not be exactly great but might be sustainable for a while.

If it were published by almost any other publisher, it might be at the 2,000 or so range. In this case (and in the Image case), the continuation of the title would depend on if the creators felts that they were getting whatever they needed out of the title (money, freedom of expression, whatever).


The bottom line is that the required sales for a DCU title is higher than that of a Vertgio title. Simon Dark is a new enough property that there is no DCU "big picture" reasons to keep the title around. So while DC may keep the title around, it seem more likely that it will end after the next storyarc or two.

[JohnMayo]

This goes against the conventional wisdom that holds companies "know" people wait for the trade.

Not really. They know people wait for the trades.

They also know that the average new DCU trade sells in the 2,000 to 3,000 range if it is lucky.

The key thing to remember is that people are waiting for the trades, not buying them. At least not initially.

The unknown is if the Simon Dark trades will sell like a DCU trade or a Vertigo trade.

[JohnMayo]

I would say that there is a tipping point where a title needs to sell a certain amount to sustain itself, regardless of downstream trade business. I also think the Vertigo business model is more reliant/tolerant of the trade business to carry them through.

John, some analysis on Vertigo trades being a more "relatively sustainable" business than trades featuring minor DCU characters??

This goes back to my assertion that Simon Dark should have been released as a Vertigo title, as it was originally intended.

http://tinyurl.com/67c9s2

And you might be right. However, it probably would have started with lower numbers since people like me that got it for the Gotham City connection (not that there has really been one) would have passed on it. Conversely, the Vertigo readers that might have picked up the title that passed on it because of that same DCU connection might have been more loyal.

[Lobo]

And you might be right. However, it probably would have started with lower numbers since people like me that got it for the Gotham City connection (not that there has really been one) would have passed on it. Conversely, the Vertigo readers that might have picked up the title that passed on it because of that same DCU connection might have been more loyal.

Count me in the "conversely" group.

I specifically didn't pick it up because it was a DCU title. I'm not sure how many other Steve Niles fans felt the same way, or how sales of Simon Dark would have compared to Steve Niles other, non DCU titles.

It would be interesting to see if Simon Dark follows Peter David's Fallen Angel from the DCU to IDW (home of 30 Days of Night).

[JohnMayo]

And you might be right. However, it probably would have started with lower numbers since people like me that got it for the Gotham City connection (not that there has really been one) would have passed on it. Conversely, the Vertigo readers that might have picked up the title that passed on it because of that same DCU connection might have been more loyal.

Count me in the "conversely" group.

I specifically didn't pick it up because it was a DCU title. I'm not sure how many other Steve Niles fans felt the same way, or how sales of Simon Dark would have compared to Steve Niles other, non DCU titles.

It would be interesting to see if Simon Dark follows Peter David's Fallen Angel from the DCU to IDW (home of 30 Days of Night).

IDW would be an interesting home for Simon Dark. And much like Fallen Angel, it is sort of a neither fish nor fowl title for DC.

I have to think that the title initially benefited from people picking up Simon Dark because it was a DCU title by Steve Niles. I think the number of DCU fans outnumber the Steve Niles fans. That having been said, I suspect that a much higher percentage of the Steve Niles fans would have been very pleased with the title as a Steve Niles title than DCU fans are pleased with Simon Dark as a DCU title.

All in all, DC didn't do a great job positioning or marketing the title.

[BobBretall]

One of the issues on sales is that the potential audience shrinks drastically once a title moves away from the mainstream Marvel/DC universe.

You can have the EXACT SAME creative team on a book and if the publisher is DC/Vertigo instead of DC it will sell less. If the Publisher is Dark Horse/Image, it will likely sell less still, and the smaller Indy publishers less still.

As an example, look at Fallen Angel by Peter David. This is the exact same book that was being done at DC and it sells significantly less now that the DC logo is not in the upper corner. I am still getting it, but I am atypical as a reader.

Seems to still be a fair share of marvel/DC zombies out there who don't move out of that Zone. The numbers of these folks eclipse the "Indie zombies" who conversely will not buy a book with a Marvel/DC logo.

[Alec Burkhardt]

As an example, look at Fallen Angel by Peter David. This is the exact same book that was being done at DC and it sells significantly less now that the DC logo is not in the upper corner. I am still getting it, but I am atypical as a reader.

I'd actually say it's a superior book, and not just in the subjective areas (although I do think being free of even the tenuous DCU connection has definitely helped the storytelling tremendously), but in terms of the overall production values. Of course it does carry a higher cover price, but I'm sure the primary reason many of the readers left had more to do with the loss of that DC logo on the cover rather than the price increase. In some cases it may not even have been the reader's own preferences so much as the fact that they could no longer find the book because some retailers simply don't carry non DC/Marvel titles in the quantity that is sufficient to keep copies on the shelves/racks for the non-pull customer to find it.

[BobBretall]

.... I'm sure the primary reason many of the readers left had more to do with the loss of that DC logo on the cover rather than the price increase. In some cases it may not even have been the reader's own preferences so much as the fact that they could no longer find the book because some retailers simply don't carry non DC/Marvel titles in the quantity that is sufficient to keep copies on the shelves/racks for the non-pull customer to find it.

That's a VERY good point, Alec. So many stores don't even look/order past the Marvel section in Previews and people cannot buy what is not on the racks.

Folks who read Previews and pre-oder what they want are in a VAST minority, I suspect.