JMS on Spider-Man: love him or hate him?

[Flash77]

I am reading Spider-man three times a month and that's mediocre at best in my opinion.

WOW! I am loving ASM, best Spider-Man since the 80s, in my opinion.

Though, if you have liked the stuff done in the last 15 years or so, then I can maybe understand, as there seems to be a definite different feel going on lately.

BTW: 4 issues of ASM this month (weekly) # 604 - 607

While I did like the Strazinski run, I wouldn't say that I'm a JMS or nothing when it comes to Spider-man. What I did like is that the character evolved during his run, from what had come before (not including the failed attempt of the Clone Saga).

There were some major changes during his run...

1) Aunt May revealing she knows about Peter being Spider-man. She was no longer a dotting & senile woman. The honest interplay they could have was refreshing. Plus I did enjoy her canceling her subscription to the Bugle.

2) New Villains. Yes, they all weren't keepers, but Ezekiel added a new twist to his origin. And there was the gangster creature. And I'm drawing a blank on others...but I don't seem to remember him relying heavily on the old rogues gallery. Besides, we had Sensational Spider-man that had a look and feel of 70s Spectacular Spider-man with all the familiar characters.

3) Origin. To me it was interesting to ask the chicken before the egg question with the Peter getting bitten or selected. This led into the Others...which I was fine with and saw as a fun extension of his powers which writers could explore or not.

4) Stacy Kids: Controversial...yes. Good decision...questionable. I didn't have a problem with Gwen having the twins. I actually this this provided a great potential running plot that wasn't explored deeply enough. Plus it was nice to have a Goblin back in the Spidey mix. What I didn't care for was that Gwen was overtaken with Norman's charm. That's kind of weak. I'd preferred it to have been rape (though overplayed at that time with Identity Crisis and Spider-man/Blackcat).

5) Unmasking: This was the other thing I didn't care for. I thought this plotline was written poorly. Peter's behavior was not consistent with what we know of Peter and was written earlier in JMS's run. But I did like Peter confronting King Pin during or post that storyline.

This all leads to why I'm disappointed with the new storyline. True, we've had some heavy Spider-man writing with the JMS run and a little levity is refreshing...but to wipe out that progression did not seem needed. After reading Essential Spider-man volume 9, I can see why people like the current stuff and relate it to the 70s/early 80s Spider-man. The current stuff has that feel. But it also has that feel of not going anywhere. For example, many praised the Flash Thompson issue (574?). But since then, I think he's appeared in one of the Extra issues. And it's not like they haven't tried the Flash Thompson gimmick before (remember the coma or coming back from nam?). And it's fine to introduce a major character change...but do something with it. Along those lines, I think my other problem with the Brand New Day stuff is that Spider-man feels more like a supporting character than the main character. He's felt fairly stagnant. It's like when I used to read Iron-man and there was 20 pages of Tony Stark and 2 of Iron-Man. If I'm reading Amazing Spider-man...I'd like the book to seem focused on him and not Lily, or Vin, or whomever.

One of the developments I did like is making Eddie Brock Anti-Venom. But again, I don't recall there being any really follow-up since that storyline back 20 some issues ago.

I guess that ultimately I'm the type of person who doesn't think you have to revert things or reboot because of whatever reason (lack of stories to tell, wrote into a wall, etc...). I'm the type that thinks that if you have a good writer, they will write good stories within the previously established variables. For example: To me it isn't that Spider-man isn't an interesting character when he's married. It's that the editor's didn't hire a writer that can tell interesting stories in that framework.

I'm hoping this American Son storyline ends well (though I've thought the two previous big runs in BND started strong and ended poorly).

[adampasz]

I know we're off topic here, but I thought JMS Spider-Man was great until Romita left the book. Also, I never had a huge problem with the Gwen Stacey twins thing. Why is it so shocking that Osbourne was able to charm Gwen, yet it's not shocking that in Dark Reign he has charmed the entire country and more or less set himself up as a dictator?

Regarding 2X monthly shipping, I would much prefer that to $3.99 books, and it would not lead me to drop a book I liked. And I wouldn't expect them to be able to sustain that shipping schedule for any significant length of time.

[BobBretall]

Also, I never had a huge problem with the Gwen Stacey twins thing. Why is it so shocking that Osbourne was able to charm Gwen, yet it's not shocking that in Dark Reign he has charmed the entire country and more or less set himself up as a dictator?

I had a HUGE problem with the Gwen Stacy kids. The reason was that it was never established in her character that she (a) had a proclivity to sleep around or (b) had a particular fascination with powerful men.
It would have been more believable for MJ to have had a fling with Norman than Gwen. That, however, is just me, because I read the issues with Gwen as they were coming out and have opinions about how I think she might have acted.

Second, it IS shocking to me that the entire Marvel U is just handing the "keys to the kingdom" over to a psycho like Osborne just because he wandered onto the scene & shot the skrull queen. That's the really weak and unbelievable (to me) seed that Dark Reign has grown out of.

These are BOTH examples of bad storytelling.

However, neither of these things originated in the current "post Brand New Day" ASM.

[BobBretall]

1) Aunt May revealing she knows about Peter being Spider-man.

This was the one thing in the JMS run that I was OK with.

2) New Villains. Yes, they all weren't keepers, but Ezekiel added a new twist to his origin.

Hated Ezekial, Morwen, the whole crew wrapped up in screwing with Spidey's origin.

3) Origin. To me it was interesting to ask the chicken before the egg question with the Peter getting bitten or selected. This led into the Others...which I was fine with and saw as a fun extension of his powers which writers could explore or not.

You don't mess with a classic. Reworking Spidey's origin to make it some mystic spider-avatar based thing was forced and not a good idea. I think changing things up is fine, but certain basic tenets of a 40+ year old character should just be left alone.

4) Stacy Kids: Controversial...yes. Good decision...questionable.

See above post. One of (if not the absolute) worst things JMS did.

5) Unmasking: This was the other thing I didn't care for.

Weak. And didn't make any sense. He had to register with the Gov't. Nothing in the registration act said he needed to make his identity public and unmask on TV. Hey, how about filling out the form and then later on we can have a story where some government employee compromises the data and your identity gets out? Same end result, but then you don't look like a total jerk for unmasking needlessly on TV.

Just my personal opinions as a long-time spider-fan, YMMV.

[Flash77]

These are BOTH examples of bad storytelling.

However, neither of these things originated in the current "post Brand New Day" ASM.

Just curious...

Did you find Mary Jane essentially sleeping around with that movie star within her character and an example of good storytelling.

Now it is in her character to be a flirt...but does that mean she sleeps around?

[BobBretall]

Just curious...

Did you find Mary Jane essentially sleeping around with that movie star within her character and an example of good storytelling.

Now it is in her character to be a flirt...but does that mean she sleeps around?

Well, I have two answers to that:

1) it happened during a period of Spider-Man that was generally not very good (that period for me runs from Maximum Clonage thru Brand New Day, with a few bright spots, most notably JR Jr's work...)
As such, it is immediately suspect.

2) MJ sleeping around (given she was at the time a model/movie star, and I watch the "entertainment news") is hardly a stretch of the imagination. It is also a fair extrapolation of her "flirty" character as established in the earliest days.

[Trev]

I think it was JMS's run on Spider-Man that convinced me that I'm basically not a fan of JMS. It wasn't that I necessarily *disliked* all of his work, but the stuff that I kind of liked I only kind of liked and there was a large swath of stuff that I just didn't care for at all ("the Other", "back in black").

I didn't read the whole run, I think. I only got back into comics about 4.5 years ago and I think he was on the book before that, wasn't he? I never read the Gwen storyline anyway.

For the first few years I was collecting, I tried JMS on almost everything he was on. I recognized the name from Babylon 5 (though I didn't watch that show) and he was getting a lot of buzz from people who loved his work. It was right around the middle of 'back in black' that I realized JMS was a writer I just didn't care much for. Now instead of trying his books out right away based on his name, I instead take more of a wait and see approach and then try out his books if a lot of people whose opinions I trust call it out as particularly good. I did this with Thor and I think that worked out better.

I love the current ASM stuff, though. I can't think of a particular arc post OMD that I didn't really like.

[Webhead]

I gotta agree with Flash Fan, BND has not been great Spider-Man stories

When I say that I really mean Spider-Man stories and not comic stories. Since BND, the writers except for Waid have been writing good stories but they have forgotten what makes a good Spider-Man story.

The key to writing a good Spider-Man story is you have to tell good Peter Parker stories not just Spider-Man stories. Since BND not much story telling has been devoted to Peter and his friends and family. Yes we have gotten some but mostly the stories have been about Spider-Man.

The main driving force for Peter to make the deal was to save Aunt May's life but it was only recently did we see more then the occasional panel of her. Mostly it was her at the shelter but that was it. Where are all the stories that they could not be told with a married Peter Parker? All the current stories could have been told with a married Spider-Man all they needed was a little tweaking and they could of worked.

Right now I would say the ASM is a really good comic when you compare it to everything else but these stories could be told just as well with any other character at Marvel or DC. I hold Spider-Man up to a higher standard and these stories have not been make the grade. What always made Spider-Man books special has been missing since BND.

[Trev]

I gotta agree with Flash Fan, BND has not been great Spider-Man stories

When I say that I really mean Spider-Man stories and not comic stories. Since BND, the writers except for Waid have been writing good stories but they have forgotten what makes a good Spider-Man story.

The key to writing a good Spider-Man story is you have to tell good Peter Parker stories not just Spider-Man stories. Since BND not much story telling has been devoted to Peter and his friends and family. Yes we have gotten some but mostly the stories have been about Spider-Man.

The main driving force for Peter to make the deal was to save Aunt May's life but it was only recently did we see more then the occasional panel of her. Mostly it was her at the shelter but that was it. Where are all the stories that they could not be told with a married Peter Parker? All the current stories could have been told with a married Spider-Man all they needed was a little tweaking and they could of worked.

Right now I would say the ASM is a really good comic when you compare it to everything else but these stories could be told just as well with any other character at Marvel or DC. I hold Spider-Man up to a higher standard and these stories have not been make the grade. What always made Spider-Man books special has been missing since BND.

I don't agree, but then I'm probably not as big a spider-man fan judging by your avatar, username, and sig

Just curious about when you started reading spider-man? BND definitely reminds me of the book in the pre-marriage days of the late 70's and early 80's.

There was a lot of speculation early on in OMD/BND that most readers had never really experienced a non-married Peter and that would necessarily alter how they viewed the book.

[BobBretall]

I think I can give Chris a run for his money in Spider-fan-iness.....

But I agree with Trev. I'm actually loving the attention that has been given to Peter & the supporting cast in the BND era. It "feels" like the old Spider-Man I loved growing up, but obviously, YMMV, since Chris does not feel this way.

PS: I started reading Spider-Man (and comics) with Amazing Spider-Man #88.

[Webhead]

The first Spider-Man I bought is ASM 115. Unlike Bob I own all but 12 Spider-Man comics. Bob is almost done or is done with his run...(I am so envious)

Well Like I said I hold up Spider-Man comics to a higher level so take what I said with a grain of salt.

I see why people like it so much. I am enjoying the Mark Waid Stories myself. They feel like Spider-Man stories to me.

[adampasz]

I don't have a problem with JMS adding traits to Gwen's personality that weren't hinted at 30 years ago. I listened to an interview with Gerry Conway, where he talks extensively about writing Gwen Stacey. (http://tinyurl.com/nlx54s) Even Conway felt that she was a pretty two-dimensional character until she died.

I also don't think the fact that she (or any woman) could be charmed by a powerful man is unbelievable. This happens all the time. It doesn't mean she is promiscuous; it could have been a one time mistake for her. (Watch Vicky Cristina Barcelona for an interesting spin on this sort of story.) In ASM 511, the entire event is presented as Gwen's mistake, and something she is trying to keep secret.

Look, I'm not trying to defend Sins Past as great storytelling -- it was way too soap-operaish for me -- but I also think the amount outrage over it was ridiculous. In my mind the Civil War unmasking of Spidey was a much more idiotic story choice, and was completely untrue to the character of Peter Parker. But I don't think this was JMS's choice.

I loved the Ezekial stuff and the mystic origin ret-con. In particular, the 3-issue sequence where Spidey is fighting Morlun -- and getting his (bleep) handed to him -- is fantastic. My problem with Brand New Day is that it seems stuck in the 70s in terms of what they're doing with the character. JMS really tried to push things in new directions. He didn't always knock it out of the park, and the book lost its steam after Romita left, but I like it when writers take risks.

[Skyhawke]

I have to point out that the Gwen Stacey/Osborn kids plot line was not something JMS wanted to write but was dictated to him by editorial to do. I would say his run on Spider-Man on was pretty good until that story arc and then it went sharply downhill from there. You have to wonder with hindsight being 20/20 if JMS would of opted out of writing Spider-Man at that point if he knew he was going to have to write BND as well. Another story line he wasn't happy with.

JMS does his best writing when he gets to play in the sandbox with minimal editorial interference or with company crossover events interfering with his stories.

Spider-Man aside, JMS isn't my favorite writer. In my opinion, he tends to get a bit preachy with his writing. Also any project he works on starts out great but always seems to dissipate at the end, whether by momentum of story line or the series itself just stops (i.e. The Twelve).

[BobBretall]

You are correct that the "Sins Past" (and Brand New Day, for that matter), had a lot of editorial meddling involved.

That said, it folds into the "Did not enjoy the JMS era" for me, whether he was solely responsible for the stories or not.

BTW, the whole Morlun / Ezekial / spider-totem stuff was not something I liked either. Bringing a mystical aspect into Spidey's powers to overlay the "pure pseudo-science" of the original origin was not a good idea, IMO, and seems to be getting thankfully ignored nowadays.