Mayo Report

[Wood]

Exceptionally good discussion this month I thought guys, from pointing out the Marvel market share and how it's effectively skewed by late release dates from DC to the inevitable realities we face where mainstream C-list books routinely outsell even the best stuff from Image much less true small press stuff.

One bone to pick though, I cringed when I heard Bob say that MOST people are reading Secret Invasion IN SPITE of the artwork. I know Bob [and John from the sound of it] aren't big Yu fans but, frankly, I think you're WAY off base in suggesting that's a majority view. I've heard far more compliments about his stuff than detractors, and I personally think the artwork is far outweighing the meandering writing.

My $0.02.

[IanG]

I liked the discussion Bob and John had about the new Iron Man DVD and how it doesn't do any cross selling with the comic books. As they were saying, it would only take a small percentage of those people who bought the DVD to then get and boost the sales numbers of the Iron Man comic books. I don't know why Marvel focuses so much money and effort on Secret Invasion advertising. Why not focus on this movie and comic book "cross pollination." I think there's a leadership disconnect between the movie making arm of Marvel and the comic book side.

The reason why Hulk #6 was three on the top sales list is because the story had eluded to us getting an identity of the Red Hulk. Also, some sort of exciting conclusion to the fight between the two Hulks. I thought the "conclusion" in #6 was kinda lame and predictable. I got on to this new Hulk series because I saw the latest movie in the theater, not becuase of any marketing from Marvel. I doubt the new Hulk DVD that just came out has any marketing material pointing you to the comic books.

[BobBretall]

One bone to pick though, I cringed when I heard Bob say that MOST people are reading Secret Invasion IN SPITE of the artwork. I know Bob [and John from the sound of it] aren't big Yu fans but, frankly, I think you're WAY off base in suggesting that's a majority view. I've heard far more compliments about his stuff than detractors, and I personally think the artwork is far outweighing the meandering writing.
My $0.02.

Fair enough, I was reflecting my own dislike of Yu's art onto the comics buying populace.

I'd be interested in a LARGE sampling poll (which we cannot do here due to the low amount of traffic we get on the forum) about whether people would rather see Yu, Perez, or "fill-in-the-blank" artist doing Secret Invasion.

I guess I dislike his style SO MUCh that it is almost inconceivable to me that there are the majority of comics fans who prefer his art to a more conventionally "good" (subjective, I know) artist.

[BobBretall]

I doubt the new Hulk DVD that just came out has any marketing material pointing you to the comic books.

I bought the Hulk DVD ("special edition 2-disc set"), and you are correct, there is nothing whatsoever that would point someone to the comics.

[Koete]

I bought the Hulk DVD ("special edition 2-disc set"), and you are correct, there is nothing whatsoever that would point someone to the comics.

Well he is a different color in the comics these days.

[Skyhawke]

You can add me to one of those that is not a big fan of Yu, if it wasn't for the writing I would be avoiding Avengers and Invasion altogether. The only positive thing I can say about him is, he seems to be able to handle large group of characters in panels. Secret Invasion is going to be only 2 weeks late on its final issue vs what the disaster Civil War release schedule ended up being. So is ability to get a huge event series out on time is a plus as well.

Other than that his lines are not clean and I would really prefer someone that can draw clean lines for a comic book.

[JohnMayo]

One bone to pick though, I cringed when I heard Bob say that MOST people are reading Secret Invasion IN SPITE of the artwork. I know Bob [and John from the sound of it] aren't big Yu fans but, frankly, I think you're WAY off base in suggesting that's a majority view. I've heard far more compliments about his stuff than detractors, and I personally think the artwork is far outweighing the meandering writing.
My $0.02.

Fair enough, I was reflecting my own dislike of Yu's art onto the comics buying populace.

I'd be interested in a LARGE sampling poll (which we cannot do here due to the low amount of traffic we get on the forum) about whether people would rather see Yu, Perez, or "fill-in-the-blank" artist doing Secret Invasion.

I guess I dislike his style SO MUCh that it is almost inconceivable to me that there are the majority of comics fans who prefer his art to a more conventionally "good" (subjective, I know) artist.

I can believe that. The titles Yu works on tend to sell fairly well. So, clearly, there has to be people who like his work. Personally, I tend to prefer a cleaner art style but to each his own.

On a similar note, while I'm finding the writing on Final Crisis to be average at best and needlessly obtuse at times, a lot of people are apparently loving it for the same reasons I'm underwhelmed by it.

When talking about the sales estimates, I try to differentiate my personal feelings on the material from how it is selling and why.

To a degree, and this may sounds strange at first, I also try to differentiate how most people seem to feel about a comic from how it sells. What I mean by that is with very few exceptions, even the most widely loved and acclaimed titles still seem to be losing readers each issue. From an objective point of view the drop in sales would indicate that readers are losing interest and dropping the title. But, this is happening even on titles with solid and consistent positive buzz. So, clearly there is a bit of a disconnect between how the quality and popularity of title is generally perceived and how the title is actually selling.

The bottom line is that we have no direct data on reader sales trends and have to deduce those trends based on the trends we see at the retailer level which ought to be a reflection (albeit a slightly distorted one) of those reader trends.

[Wood]

No question that art and story direction are in the eye of the beholder. That's why I'm loathe to ever make broad sweeping generalizations about what the comics audience thinks is good or bad. I just speak to whether I think something is getting it done or not.

While I am with the majority on Yu, in particular, there are plenty of well regarded artists that don't do it for me. For example, I've been quite vocal about not particularly liking Frank Quitely. Yet, it seems many, many people like/love his work. To each his own.

As to Final Crisis, I'm absolutely adoring that so far. For my $$$, the Secret Invasion tie ins have been much better than the FC tie ins, while the main stories are flip flopped. Reading SI7 and FC4 in the same day, it just really brought home the disparity between the two series. To be clear, I'm enjoying them both for what they are, but I have to give this round to Morrison at least with a few issues left to go; there is still time for FC to go out with a whimper and, conceptually, for Secret Invasion 8 to be so jam packed with relevance it makes up for probably the quickest 7 issues I've read in years.

[afroloq]

2 points about the show

- plain and simple, I am not a big fan of the art from SI, but if the story wasn't good I would have stopped reading a long time ago

- good point about Black Panther...this almost raises an issue about the post I had a while back about sexism in comics. if we already know that comics with a female lead rarely ever sells well then why would you take a book with a male lead and then SWICTH it to make the male lead a female one? Unless of course you are just trying to kill off the book....

[Wood]

2 points about the show

- plain and simple, I am not a big fan of the art from SI, but if the story wasn't good I would have stopped reading a long time ago

- good point about Black Panther...this almost raises an issue about the post I had a while back about sexism in comics. if we already know that comics with a female lead rarely ever sells well then why would you take a book with a male lead and then SWICTH it to make the male lead a female one? Unless of course you are just trying to kill off the book....

Or, just maybe, the creators feel they have a great story to tell about a strong female lead who happens to tie into the Black Panther legacy.

[HassanT]

No question that art and story direction are in the eye of the beholder. That's why I'm loathe to ever make broad sweeping generalizations about what the comics audience thinks is good or bad. I just speak to whether I think something is getting it done or not.

While I am with the majority on Yu, in particular, there are plenty of well regarded artists that don't do it for me. For example, I've been quite vocal about not particularly liking Frank Quitely. Yet, it seems many, many people like/love his work. To each his own.

As to Final Crisis, I'm absolutely adoring that so far. For my $$$, the Secret Invasion tie ins have been much better than the FC tie ins, while the main stories are flip flopped. Reading SI7 and FC4 in the same day, it just really brought home the disparity between the two series. To be clear, I'm enjoying them both for what they are, but I have to give this round to Morrison at least with a few issues left to go; there is still time for FC to go out with a whimper and, conceptually, for Secret Invasion 8 to be so jam packed with relevance it makes up for probably the quickest 7 issues I've read in years.

I do enjoy both events as well, but I have realized that I am loving SI less and less, while I am loving FC more and more. I would disagree about the tie-ins though.

I also like Yu (and Ramos). Although I couldn't see Ramos drawing any main DC character.

[HassanT]

John made a good point about late books having a huge impact on Market Share. I wonder what will have with November sales, if DC does ship everything that they have scheduled in November (FC, All Star Batman, the JSA one-shots), when this is the month that Marvel is not publishing SI or Mighty Avengers. And who knows about the Hulk Although Ultimatum is shipping in November.

[thefreakytiki]

I enjoyed this episode immensely.

It breaks my heart that a few bad apples make it hard for the other honest LCS guys and girls to get ahead. I do love John's idea for moving New Comic's Day to Thursday but keeping all the shipping mechanics in place.

We have had great discussions about the Wednesday morning anxiety an LCS goes through when it comes to the short period of time before the doors open. I agree with John that a move of a street date opens up countless possibilities for customer service. The ability for a staff to sell to the public after they have had time to breathe and actually read the books they are selling is great.


the Tiki

[BobBretall]

I do love John's idea for moving New Comic's Day to Thursday but keeping all the shipping mechanics in place.

I think that in the "fantasy world" where this would happen, that mail-order comics place should be allowed to put their packages in the mail on Wednesday (currently they cannot mail until the "street date", but no package will arrive the same day it is sent.)

[JohnMayo]

I do love John's idea for moving New Comic's Day to Thursday but keeping all the shipping mechanics in place.

I think that in the "fantasy world" where this would happen, that mail-order comics place should be allowed to put their packages in the mail on Wednesday (currently they cannot mail until the "street date", but no package will arrive the same day it is sent.)

I agree with you intent here but I'd phrase it slightly differently and allow retailers to mail packages so long as those packages aren't scheduled to arrive until the street date.

The key difference being that if a retailer is able to get them ready to ship on Tuesday, they could ship any packages that would take until the street date of Thursday to arrive on Tuesday but would have to wait until Wednesday to ship any packages that only need one day to arrive. The end result is that no customer is able to get the comics before the street date.

Of course, physical stores would probably complain on the basis that such a rule gives the mail order stores some sort of advantage. But, does it really? Both the online and physical stores would be getting the books at the same time and the customers of both would also be getting them at the same time. That seems like a level playing field to me.