Weekly Comic Spotlight

[jonah]

Thanks for the word counts. I'm very curious how that stack up to other titles like Batman which is crazy popular right now and Astro City which is a fairly story dense title.

On the batman front, Batman #21, the first part of the Zero year has the following counts on the first story (didn't do the second).

Pages : 22
Panels : 117
Words : 1940
Words per page on average : 88
Words per panel on average : 17
Panels per page on average : 5
Number of pages with 10 words or less : 7

Biggest contrast between the catalyst story and this was the use of caption words. The batman story had a total of 17 words outside the flow of dialog and they were typically used to provide a time or date. I should probably have noted in the Catalyst comic the number of panels with little or no dialog/captions as it tended to drive down the average per panel disguising the true density of the words per panel.

John : I'm probably going to do a few more counts on books. Should I leave this in this thread or start another topic altogether to get it out of here. Alternatively, should I leave well enough alone and let this topic die ?

[JohnMayo]

Biggest contrast between the catalyst story and this was the use of caption words. The batman story had a total of 17 words outside the flow of dialog and they were typically used to provide a time or date. I should probably have noted in the Catalyst comic the number of panels with little or no dialog/captions as it tended to drive down the average per panel disguising the true density of the words per panel.

Great distinction. Using captions to clarify the time flow is perfectly fine with me. Using it to fill in the gaps in the storytelling is where I start to have issues to wordy captions.

John : I'm probably going to do a few more counts on books. Should I leave this in this thread or start another topic altogether to get it out of here. Alternatively, should I leave well enough alone and let this topic die ?

I'm fine with you starting another thread on word counts. It is interesting to see what feels wordy versus what actually is wordy and how the use of the words different between comics.

[drew]

Thanks for the word counts. I'm very curious how that stack up to other titles like Batman which is crazy popular right now and Astro City which is a fairly story dense title.

On the batman front, Batman #21, the first part of the Zero year has the following counts on the first story (didn't do the second).

Pages : 22
Panels : 117
Words : 1940
Words per page on average : 88
Words per panel on average : 17
Panels per page on average : 5
Number of pages with 10 words or less : 7

Biggest contrast between the catalyst story and this was the use of caption words. The batman story had a total of 17 words outside the flow of dialog and they were typically used to provide a time or date. I should probably have noted in the Catalyst comic the number of panels with little or no dialog/captions as it tended to drive down the average per panel disguising the true density of the words per panel.

John : I'm probably going to do a few more counts on books. Should I leave this in this thread or start another topic altogether to get it out of here. Alternatively, should I leave well enough alone and let this topic die ?

this is great work, thank you your time on this, it really tells a story...i bet there is a thesis or dissertation topic here in the analysis of "wordiness" in comics

[jonah]

this is great work, thank you your time on this, it really tells a story...i bet there is a thesis or dissertation topic here in the analysis of "wordiness" in comics

Thanks for the feedback. Fairly certain there are smarter people out there who have already done some work along those lines. Suspect there's a formula much like music. However, much like music, artist/creators like J.H. Williams or Francis Manapul will bend those rules to give us new ways of seeing the same thing.

[comicm]

The one other thing that I read from Simon Oliver that I really enjoyed was The Exterminators also from Vertigo. Definitely not for John.

[fudd71]

Loved the episode as always gentlemen, thanks for always brightening my Monday mornings. I did have a couple of thoughts on a few things brought up and would love your or anyone else’s thoughts.

Relic being too powerful is an interesting thought and one I agree with. I also really like the comparison to Galactus and think it is completely appropriate. While I do understand that such a powerful character existing can seem unrealistic, Galactus has been around for over 45 years now and has always been an immensely popular character and accepted part of the Marvel Universe.

Bruce Timm and creating for corporate owned universes. It is an interesting thing and one that most conversations about tend to be very lopsided with little regard for the other side. Harley Quinn is a tremendously popular character, but a large part of that popularity comes from the setting and existing characters. Without Gotham, Batman and the Joker Harley is most likely a forgotten female psychopath character that appeared in some indy book many years ago and was quickly forgotten. Also when it is talked about work hire employees not being rewarded properly for success, the idea that creators should share in corporate losses for characters or books that fail is never suggested. While I would love to see creators rewarded for their successes it is also unfair to assume they deserve the rewards while not sharing in the risk. Obviously there is no easy answer to this, but to forget the marketing efforts, instant recognition and large exposure corporate universes give creations seems a little unfair too.

[JohnMayo]

Relic being too powerful is an interesting thought and one I agree with. I also really like the comparison to Galactus and think it is completely appropriate. While I do understand that such a powerful character existing can seem unrealistic, Galactus has been around for over 45 years now and has always been an immensely popular character and accepted part of the Marvel Universe.

My point wasn't that a character that powerful existing seeming unrealistic but that because he is so powerful, the crux of the story (the GLC defeating him) seemed unrealistic.

One point of contention I have with the Injustice: Gods Among Us video game is the concept of pitting Nightwing against Superman as if Nightwing could survive a full on battle against Superman (with no magic or Kryptonite involved). It has nothing to do with a character as powerful as Superman existing but on the massive power level difference between Nightwing and Superman.

Same thing with Relic. I'm fine with him existing. As you point out, Galactus has been around for decades so cosmic level characters are nothing new. It just seems to undercut the suspension of disbelief for the story to a noticeable degree.

Bruce Timm and creating for corporate owned universes. It is an interesting thing and one that most conversations about tend to be very lopsided with little regard for the other side. Harley Quinn is a tremendously popular character, but a large part of that popularity comes from the setting and existing characters. Without Gotham, Batman and the Joker Harley is most likely a forgotten female psychopath character that appeared in some indy book many years ago and was quickly forgotten. Also when it is talked about work hire employees not being rewarded properly for success, the idea that creators should share in corporate losses for characters or books that fail is never suggested. While I would love to see creators rewarded for their successes it is also unfair to assume they deserve the rewards while not sharing in the risk. Obviously there is no easy answer to this, but to forget the marketing efforts, instant recognition and large exposure corporate universes give creations seems a little unfair too.

Could Harley Quinn exist without Gotham City and the Batman mythos? Sure. Would she be as popular? Almost certainly not. Your point that the mythos surrounding the character are a key part of what makes the character work is completely valid.

I see your point that if the creators get a cut of the profits, they should endure a cut of the losses. As for creators not participating in the corporate losses with failed characters, I think they do. The title ends, so does their job on that title. Individual creators are spending a higher percentage of their time on these characters than the corporate entity is. That means if a creator is working on a few books that are tanking and those titles end, a huge chunk of their income goes with the title while the company is better diversified across everything they publish.

My point with Bruce Timm is rightly or wrongly, he felt that he didn't get enough of the profit from creating Harley Quinn and as a result of those feelings was much more reluctant to create other such breakout characters for the Batman mythos. Wouldn't both Bruce Timm and DC have mutually benefited from Timm feeling better compensated and having created a number of other such popular characters?

[fudd71]

My point with Bruce Timm is rightly or wrongly, he felt that he didn't get enough of the profit from creating Harley Quinn and as a result of those feelings was much more reluctant to create other such breakout characters for the Batman mythos. Wouldn't both Bruce Timm and DC have mutually benefited from Timm feeling better compensated and having created a number of other such popular characters?

I absolutely agree that it would have been better for all parties involved if there was some sort deal in place where Mr. Timm was better compensated for a character like Harley. I the case of Harley he was most likely well under paid. My point was not that Mr. Timm was wrong for feeling under-compensated in this case, just that creators and particularly outside commentators and fans highly under value the contributions of large publishers to the success of many properties and characters when these types of discussions arise.

[JohnMayo]

My point was not that Mr. Timm was wrong for feeling under-compensated in this case, just that creators and particularly outside commentators and fans highly under value the contributions of large publishers to the success of many properties and characters when these types of discussions arise.

And that is a fair point. It is easy to give all of the credit to the creator but the publisher did set up the situation for the creator to create within and that usually is completely overlooked.

[fudd71]

I want to say thank you to John and Drew from another great show!

I also wanted to mention Triple Helix #1 was much better after hearing some background from John on the podcast. I had that issue waiting at home to read when I listening to the podcast, I wasn't too worried about spoilers because you are always so good about not doing that. So I listened to the episode before reading the issue. I had not read Trio nor was I aware the two book were related before the episode. I actually enjoyed the issue, it wasn't great and did feel a little dated as John noted but I enjoyed it. That was only possible because of John's basic descriptive set-up of Trio and that they are rock, paper and scissor and called each other one, two and three and that they were a separate team from the Triple Helix members. Without that information that wasn't given by the comic I don't think I would have understood or enjoyed the issue nearly as much. So thank you John! You did a better job of setting up this story then IDW publishing did.

[JohnMayo]

I want to say thank you to John and Drew from another great show!

I also wanted to mention Triple Helix #1 was much better after hearing some background from John on the podcast. I had that issue waiting at home to read when I listening to the podcast, I wasn't too worried about spoilers because you are always so good about not doing that. So I listened to the episode before reading the issue. I had not read Trio nor was I aware the two book were related before the episode. I actually enjoyed the issue, it wasn't great and did feel a little dated as John noted but I enjoyed it. That was only possible because of John's basic descriptive set-up of Trio and that they are rock, paper and scissor and called each other one, two and three and that they were a separate team from the Triple Helix members. Without that information that wasn't given by the comic I don't think I would have understood or enjoyed the issue nearly as much. So thank you John! You did a better job of setting up this story then IDW publishing did.

Glad I could help. The funny thing is Trio was much more accessible than Triple Helix.

[comicm]

I will say that I read all of the new 52 titles and Wonder Woman is usually in the 5/5 range. This book is great and I have been reading Wonder Woman continuously since the 80s. Drew I really think if you get the trades, digital or monthlies you will get more out of what you just read. I am glad you were able to jump in and enjoy the story. I wish more monthlies were like this.

[drew]

agreed, if more creators took advantage of a bump in new readers by writing great, engaging stories when they get the chance (through crossover events, cover gimmicks, or just in general) the sales would rise instead of the way its trending now.

[fudd71]

Relic being too powerful is an interesting thought and one I agree with. I also really like the comparison to Galactus and think it is completely appropriate. While I do understand that such a powerful character existing can seem unrealistic, Galactus has been around for over 45 years now and has always been an immensely popular character and accepted part of the Marvel Universe.

Now that it has been a week since Lights Out ended and hopefully those of us interested have had a chance to read the whole story what did everyone think.

Personally I really enjoyed the story quite a bit. A couple of quick thoughts

Overall New Guardians has been my favorite of the Green Lantern books for quite sometime and I think this series leaves Kyle in an interesting spot with a ton of possibilities. I am really looking forward to see what happens with that title and where it goes from here.

I will pick up the next few issues of Red Lanterns and possibly even on a more permanent basis. I had dropped Red Lanterns after issue #4 and #24 was the first time I had picked one up since. I enjoyed it enough that I will give the title another shot.

I personally really disliked the art more accurately the coloring on Green Lantern Corps #24. Bernard Chang's art has never been my favorite but this particular issue stood out and I think if was the coloring of Andrea Sorrentino. The colors all seemed washed out especially as compared to the other 5 issues of Lights Outs. Also the smaller inset panels on the big action pages that were colored completely in reds, yellows and oranges seemed really out of place since they were all GREEN Lanterns. Andrea Sorrentino's colors have been beautiful in Green Arrow recently so I don't think it is a talent thing but just a poor choice of pallet for this title. Especially for part 3 of a 6 issue series where this book stood out and looked very different then the other 5 parts.

[fudd71]

Listening to this week’s episode, I was struck by the difference in reception between Sandman Overture #1 and the Before Watchmen books. While John and Drew each gave the book a 4 out 5, they each also seemed slightly disappointed. John even mentioned the expectation some might have based on the Sandman series. This struck me as very different to the reaction most had about the Before Watchmen book.

When the Before Watchmen books were announced the most common or at least loudest voices tended to be either a hatred for the very concept of the project or at best mild trepidation with people taking a wait and see approach. However most were certain the books would never live up the original. By the time those books had been released and people began reading them the opinions seems largely positive and to have exceeded people’s expectations.

When Sandman Overture was announced the most common feelings seemed to be a high level of excitement and anticipation. Fans of the older series all seemed extremely excited and were convinced the book would match the quality of the original series. While the reviews have mostly been positive there seems to also be a feeling that the book isn’t quite as good as some had hoped.

Sure there were the obligatory anyone touching Watchman is a heretic and anything Neil Gaiman and Sandman is pure genius type reviews, but this doesn’t seem to be the overall feeling. Overall people seem to feel Before Watchmen was better than expected and Sandman Overture was as good or slightly worse than expected. Managing expectations as a comic book publisher has to be one of the toughest things to do. Having fans excited with high expectations will lead to huge preorder numbers and high sales of early issues for a publisher. However keeping expectations down slightly can lead to better word of mouth, which may translate in smaller drops on later issues, possible trade sales and making selling the next series that much easier. It is a hard spot for publishers to be in.