Mayo Report

[BobBretall]

Interesting points. I agree that Marvel, and to some extent DC, will continue to focus on bumping the short term numbers rather than slowly build a more consistent stable sales track. Like the 90's they are relying a lot on variants but the problem there is eventually even people that collect those will see they can't afford forever to keep buying multiple copies of the same book. This gimmick does nothing to motivate new readers to try different books but rather focus's on an ever decreasing fan base.

Exactly, it's a focus on extracting as many $ as possible out of the existing fan base instead of: (a) building new fans -or- (b) encouraging existing fans to try new stuff.

I say this because someone spending $50-$100 on variant covers is not spending that money on other comics that will cement their relationship with comics as an art-form. Maybe the thought is that if the $$ is not captured on the variants it would just go to other publishers or outside of comics on other forms of entertainment.

[the1captain]

Interesting points. I agree that Marvel, and to some extent DC, will continue to focus on bumping the short term numbers rather than slowly build a more consistent stable sales track. Like the 90's they are relying a lot on variants but the problem there is eventually even people that collect those will see they can't afford forever to keep buying multiple copies of the same book. This gimmick does nothing to motivate new readers to try different books but rather focus's on an ever decreasing fan base.

Exactly, it's a focus on extracting as many $ as possible out of the existing fan base instead of: (a) building new fans -or- (b) encouraging existing fans to try new stuff.

I say this because someone spending $50-$100 on variant covers is not spending that money on other comics that will cement their relationship with comics as an art-form. Maybe the thought is that if the $$ is not captured on the variants it would just go to other publishers or outside of comics on other forms of entertainment.

I've always felt that there is too much focus on who's got the biggest market share. Who cares if their company is number one if over time the pie gets smaller? A strong DC helps Marvel and the reverse is true. There is too much attention to sales competition. The important thing is to get people into the shop seeing what's available. "Brand loyalty" doesn't exist anymore. If a DC book gets me into the store I might eventually check out a Marvel book I see on the shelf. Keeping people interested in the hobby is very important if you want to keep them coming back over years.

Like the 90's I can see eventually some people that spend big money on variants will try to sell them and be surprised they are not getting the return they expected. This "panic" will lead to people maybe not buying as many variants as they will just sit in a box. Then the manufactured sales bumps will drop drastically. In other words, it's the 90's. Yes some people get variants for their personal collection. But I find it hard to believe the money and quantity some people are throwing at copies of the same book is not with a speculators eye.

[boshuda]

Like the 90's I can see eventually some people that spend big money on variants will try to sell them and be surprised they are not getting the return they expected. This "panic" will lead to people maybe not buying as many variants as they will just sit in a box. Then the manufactured sales bumps will drop drastically. In other words, it's the 90's. Yes some people get variants for their personal collection. But I find it hard to believe the money and quantity some people are throwing at copies of the same book is not with a speculators eye.

I don't think it's the 90's. I think an important difference is the age of the comic reader. I suspect a lot of the variant buyers are guys in their thirties (like me) who finally have the disposable income to grab these things. Although I don't spend my money on variants. I would rather put that money towards original art. In the nineties we were in our teens and had little dollars, so the people buying those were probably mostly speculators looking to flip it. I just don't see the same speculation this time around. Although Wood over at EoC has indicated that because the market has been flat for so long people may be using this as an investment vehicle.

[the1captain]

Youi bring up a valid point. Yes as we are older we have money we didn't have as teenagers. But we also have bills and responsibilities we didn't have then either. I'm not crapping on people that collect variants whatever makes you happy. JMHO but I believe it's the characters and stories that are what keep people in the hobby. Not the variants.

[boshuda]

Youi bring up a valid point. Yes as we are older we have money we didn't have as teenagers. But we also have bills and responsibilities we didn't have then either. I'm not crapping on people that collect variants whatever makes you happy. JMHO but I believe it's the characters and stories that are what keep people in the hobby. Not the variants.

Sure, we have bills. No doubt. My point more was that I think the readers today are the ones buying the variants - not outside speculators. I completely agree it's the stories and characters that keep people coming back. It's why I can't quit comics. Even though they continue to abuse me. I love them.

[heroesmask]

Exactly, it's a focus on extracting as many $ as possible out of the existing fan base instead of: (a) building new fans -or- (b) encouraging existing fans to try new stuff.

I think that the way Marvel and DC plan on growing the readership is through digital. Right now both companies are in a spot because the majority of sales come through the direct market. Once that tips the other way, I think things are going to change in a big way. I fear the day that big budget superhero movies, cartoons, etc don't bring in high dollars. Right now Disney can make a case with Marvel that if it's marginally profitable or break even that they keep the IP coming to filter through licensing and box office revenue. Once that stops then there will be more focus on making sure print is a loser.

[BobBretall]

"Brand loyalty" doesn't exist anymore. If a DC book gets me into the store I might eventually check out a Marvel book I see on the shelf. Keeping people interested in the hobby is very important if you want to keep them coming back over years.

Maybe for some people, but I still think there are a lot of people out there who have loyalty to Marvel & buy primarily (if not exclusively) Marvel books. I see these people every time I go to my LCS. A hand full of Marvel & no other publishers.

[HassanT]

"Brand loyalty" doesn't exist anymore. If a DC book gets me into the store I might eventually check out a Marvel book I see on the shelf. Keeping people interested in the hobby is very important if you want to keep them coming back over years.

Maybe for some people, but I still think there are a lot of people out there who have loyalty to Marvel & buy primarily (if not exclusively) Marvel books. I see these people every time I go to my LCS. A hand full of Marvel & no other publishers.

I agree with Bob. Marvel still has a huge fan base that is loyal to them, only. You can tell just by reading posts and reviews, where everything else sucks and everything Marvel puts out is great.

Everyone knows that I am bias towards DC Comics, but to me, that means the bar for me to buy a DC book is lower than other publishe. I admit that. However, I am self aware of that, which is different from others who are blindly bias. In addition, I do try and read other books. I buy books from Dark Horse, Marvel, Valiant, and Image as well. In fact, I am really loving a lot of the Marvel Now books.

[Perry]

Mayo Report: 2013-01 Comics

Wow, I was feeling good when I woke-up until I listened to this "doom and gloom" episode of the Report. Question, are sales really declining as bad as being stated here?

I mean, I see the yearly reports showing an increase in overall sales (over the last 2 years) and while yes, most of that could be associated with variant covers, DC's reboot and other non-sustainable figures, I don't see the same "the sky is falling" aspect as you guys do. That of course be my total ignorance (as I am almost assured it is ).

Before the 2008 crash, total unit sales were steadily increasing (I only went back to 2001) at a nice rate:
2001 - 66.92 (Million units sold for the year)
2002 - 70.72
2003 - 73.02
2004 - 74.36
2005 - 76.13
2006 - 81.85
2007 - 85.27
2008 - 81.34
2009 - 74.88
2010 - 69.20
2011 - 72.13
2012 - 80.55

Where you guys see a decline (based in ... from what I can tell ... decline of individual title sales) I see growth. A resurgence of buying after a decline of sales from an economic tragedy. During the 3 year span of 2008-2010, people were really hurting from the housing and bank debacle. Money was tight and discretionary income was very, very low. People had to walk away from spending money on frivolous items such as comics.

Now, that things are settling down, I see a return of buyers. I see more interest in the industry as a whole than I ever did (90's bull crap excluded of course).

Plus, when it comes to individual title sales drops, as Bob touched on, these sales figures do not show the amount of buyers that are switching to digital. While some of those buyers maybe double dipping and buying both print and digital copies, I have to assume that a majority of people buying digital, are solely buying digital copies instead of print copies. That would cause a great decline of individual title sales.

And could the falling interest in books like RED SONJA be solely based on just losing interest in the title, from either bad writing or bad art or theme and not due to having multiple covers? John eluded that having the multiple covers of Sonja made people lose interest. He stated (re: multiple covers on Sonja) "The more you do it, the less it works". I don't think that is a fair or accurate statement.

Also, the desire of having more than 25 titles over 100K ... isn't that an impossible dream, as most people don't buy like you guys do (I know you are well aware of that )? I would venture a guess that the average comic buyer ... no, the majority of comic buyers, purchase less than 25 titles a month. That alone limits the amount of 100K titles that can be had, as not every buyer will buy the same 25 titles.

And is retaining readership of buyers on titles any less now than it ever was? I know the completist will buy said title for an eternity, regardless of quality of work, but I would have to think that even the most steady buyer grows tired of a titles direction or talent and will leave a title for a few and about the same percentage of readers jumping off titles now, were jumping off titles in the 80's. Hell, I remember jumping off Cap alone about 5 times in the 80's, but my money went to some other title.

Also (wow, I am throwing a lot of 'also's out there ) doesn't the sheer amount of additional titles available for the reader to choose from also dictate lower individual title sales? I mean if 500 buyers leave Amazing to try FATALE for a year or so, that has to account for something.

Again, I agree that most of the past few years total sales can be skewed by the top 2 publishers marketing, but is it really that bad?

Well, hope I did not offend as I really did enjoy the newest installment, and these questions I post are probably way off base anyway.

[BobBretall]

I didn't feel like we were doing "doom & gloom", but if that's what you heard, that's obviously what came across to you.

I see it as applying historical perspective.

Yes, overall sales are booming (relatively), but that boom is (I believe) based on the success of what I believe to be unsustainable business practices (like re-booting to #1s all the time).

I think John made a comment something like "the forest is expanding but individual trees are dying". This seems to be true. The question is whether this business model is sustainable in the long term. We had a huge crash in the 90s. For people who were around back then, it's hard to not see similar patterns. At least we're not seeing unsustainable high sales based on an influx of outside collectors.

What we are seeing is a shift to "short-attention-span buying". Titles don't seems to be able to hold on for very long at all unless publishers can continually wow readers with some new "shiny object". Is that sustainable?

The observation I made about variant covers is that they appear to be playing out. What was once an assured sales bump is becoming less & less so. The market being pursued now seems to be the high-end "1:50 & 1:100" variants that can go for really large cash to the hard-core collectors who are willing to pay the price.

[BobBretall]

Also, the desire of having more than 25 titles over 100K ... isn't that an impossible dream, as most people don't buy like you guys do (I know you are well aware of that )? I would venture a guess that the average comic buyer ... no, the majority of comic buyers, purchase less than 25 titles a month. That alone limits the amount of 100K titles that can be had, as not every buyer will buy the same 25 titles.

John & I aside, I don't think the sales 100k+ or 200k+ or even 500k+ in the past have EVER been contingent on people buying 100+ titles a month. They existed because LOTS & LOTS of people bought a handful of titles every month.

For a resurgence of comics, this is what needs to happen. Many people need to buy comics, and we need to bring MORE people into the comics buying habit. The key thing here is habit. Build up a sustainable habit of people getting stuff each month. Do it by making it good, not by dazzling with vacuous flash.

Maybe that is shifting to digital. If so, print will die & digital will boom, but that's a whole different discussion.

[boshuda]

Do you guys have any data on how many titles were published per month over time? I'm curious if it's true that individual title sales are down while the number of titles on offer are up. It could also be interesting to see how many titles are published by Marvel and DC over time.

[BobBretall]

Do you guys have any data on how many titles were published per month over time? <snip> It could also be interesting to see how many titles are published by Marvel and DC over time.

John may have info on the # of titles that Marvel/DC publish each month. May not have all this data since they may have titles that don't make it into the top 300. At a minimum, it should be possible to show the # of Marvel/DC titles in the top 300 each month over time. Total # of titles published in each month? I'm not sure if John has that data since it's not necessarily in the Top 300 data released by Diamond.

I'm curious if it's true that individual title sales are down while the number of titles on offer are up.

One thing that seems to be the case is that titles don't seem to be able to sustain sales over time. In that respect, most titles drop over time until they get a "sales reset" via a reboot. More titles getting a reboot in a short period of time bring overall sales up as people try them (well stores order them, anyway).

It may be the case that the ongoing sales shift to TPBs or digital & are not seen in the Diamond sales. For TPB sales, I think those need to be aggregated over a long period since there's no real reason to think the bulk of sales are going to happen in the month or 2 after they are 1st released. This is the "long tail" John speaks of sometime.

[LA Rabbit]

Enjoyed the episode as always. Part of me wonders if they changed the name of the Batwing book to include the word "Batman" somewhere if it would boost sales. "Batman Adventures of Batwing" or something, seems cynical but I do wonder.

You guys have loads on your plates but if you are casting about, I would love to hear speculation/analysis on Annuals. I used to enjoy them but since Marvel started that cross-over ones at the end of the 80's, I have not liked them as much. Obviously they are unlikely to exceed average sales of the regular title but looking at the numbers this week, it seems they were sometimes quite a bit less (as compared to that title) than I would have expected. From your CBR column (just truncating, not even rounding off, I would imagine you could do this with a touch of a button but I am eyeballing off the chart).
Batman and Robin about 81K in sales, annual was at 52K.
Superboy about 27K in sales, annual was at 23K.
Green Lantern: New Guardians about 43K, annual was at 36K
Green Lantern Corp about 45K, annual was at 41K.

Do you know if they are going to do annuals for everyone? It looks like the Green Lantern books track better but as you guys noted, they treat those all as one block.

Musings on annuals anyone?

I also wonder if we are moving toward where we just don't have long series anymore and it is all reboots. I am talking DC and Marvel here for now. Maybe that is how the young kids will prefer to treat these characters. For those who developed their affections via other media (Cartoons, Video Games, Movies), they are already used to many different versions of these characters anyway so why not have one that is constantly shifting.

Batman springs to mind as a character that had a TV show that for its short run still has its fans (Adam West Batman) to the Justice League and other early cartoon versions. We then had the Burton movies which introduced several Batman actors. The Batman cartoon (Timverse version) is probably a pretty definitive version for many people and really brought DC animation into the lead for TV animation. Batman Beyond was even very popular. Now we have Nolan's movies. I think the Arkham Asylum game was good but I actually think two of my top 10 games in the last decade or so have been the Lego Batman ones (admittedly, borrows from the Timverse version). I am not going to even get into the different comic book versions. I can imagine how people might just want a new Batman or at least open to it, with great frequency. They might not need the value of a continuous consistant history as much as the core attributes of what makes Batman. We could argue the parameters but I have a feeling most of us know it when we see it.

I am definitely antiquated in my approach to media. While I do have a few digital audio files, I still get CDs. Same with movies, I still get the box instead of just a digital download. I think many people, especially younger, probably don't own any CDs nor any physical DVD/Blu-Ray. I believe Steam is sort of similar for PC games but I don't like Steam and don't do much PC gaming anymore. I feel pretty free to jump on and off of books but if I have been on it awhile, a title will get the benefit of the doubt and maybe a few extra issues. I think if I was more of a younger, digital style, I would have no trouble dropping titles the second it bored me/lost my interest. Now I recognize that there will always be collector types who want the physical, but that is a subset of the people that enjoy comics. Further, there are people I know who prefer trade to single issues. I think the particularly monthly format comic is a product of its time and is not the inherently correct or most natural form the comic can come in. I am most used to it but as people write for the trade, I have moved to trade on a few things. I can be trained like anybody. With the new distribution of the digital, maybe weekly releases of 5 pages worth of comics will be more popular. You would get 20 pages a month, just doled out differently or maybe just a big book every six months. Sorry if I am repeating this stuff. Signing off. Thanks.

[LA Rabbit]

[quote="BobBretall] It may be the case that the ongoing sales shift to TPBs or digital & are not seen in the Diamond sales. For TPB sales, I think those need to be aggregated over a long period since there's no real reason to think the bulk of sales are going to happen in the month or 2 after they are 1st released. This is the "long tail" John speaks of sometime.[/quote]

For me, I will often wait until I have a bunch I want to get and order them at one time online. Amazon and In-Stock trades usually have good discounts and free shipping once you are over a certain amount.

For those I know reading Fables and Walking Dead in trade, they usually get the trade around when it comes out (that week or the next). Because they are not on the weekly cycle, it may be a week or two later. I am in the store every Wednesday like a good sucker but even though the discount at my store is good, I can get trades even cheaper if I wait. Or free if they make it to the library which is how I am getting much of the new 52.